Discussion: Bodyguards

[Shadowcry]

I'm sorry to to say this but I have come to despise bodyguards. In the beginning when I toyed around with a couple factions like seljuk and Khwarezm were pretty nice to have. I would keep my whole army back and just charge in blindly killing all in my path. This way I annihilated the enemy army but prevented my men from gaining casualties. (yay )

Anyway this was awesome until, you found yourself on the receiving end of this lame tactic. Today I was playing as Kypchaks pwning all the steppe towns in sight and conquering all the Azeri hideouts in a blink of the eye. However as soon as my Turkish allies were in a bit of a jam ( they always seem to be in trouble somehow having boundless wealth but getting owned by the Armenians and Byzantines together. Anyway I sent a full stack of nomadic horse archers down there way destroying all in my path until I came to trebizond and Ani, dividing my army in half and sieging them both. However inside trebizond lay an angel of death, well actually 22 angels of death, the king's bodyguard. I was like hmmmm I got a half stack of HAs Ill just mow them down with arrows.

However in the battle, which was hard lost, I killed off the ERE's army except for his Bodyguard. Depleted of arrows I just decided to charge them and attempt to overwhelm him with 300 Has. Fighting to the death my brave soldiers were all slain, no massacred and for some strange reason my General BG was owned too. ERE won with 8 soldiers left.

I was like no loss that isnt fixable right? But then they attacked my other army sieging Ani, and the same thing occurred. However the garrison inside Ani held another 8 Body Guards. I was like no way they are gonna win this time! I have two generals in my army too! As well as a whole host of turcomens and kypchak mercenaries and cavalry. I killed off all of my enemies army as of before but managed not to kill off the Bodyguards which managed to slay all 500 of my warriors which died to the last man for my honor. The only survivors were my two generals and ten turcomans which fled. These Bodyguards are like machines that kill everything in sight. Is there like any way for you to turn them down so they cant go on a rampage?

[roy34543]

Theyre supposed to be like that i think.
What are assasins for after all?

[Shadowcry]

But they are too extreme i mean in melee they can kill at least 150+ HAs if say they are khwarezm or ERE even after all there army has been crushed.

[Ahiga]

I have to ask if it's the HP which is causing this. have you tried a custom battle of a similar tier 5 cavalry (Like Kataphracts) against a similar amount of Horse archers?

[Miraj]

Another "hell" BG are the Great Seljuks. I think we can simply reduce sizings for all "super" BG's (ie Cataphracts = caliphs, seljuks, khwarezm, ere). I found during campaigns that these overpowered BGs are all you really need to make mince meat out of an entire rebel garrison.

[Dead*Man*Wilson]

Yea, arrows seem to have VERY little effect on bodyguards. In my Ayyubid campaign (brilliant btw) my Quara-Ghulams on horse and foot couldnt make a dent on Jerusalem's bodyguard. Not one knight was felled by the thousands of arrows I threw at them.

[Ahiga]

To be honest guys, I don't think you should expect arrows to have any effect on the very best armored cataphract bodyguards of the ERE/Armenians/Turks/Abbasids. We're talking about multiple layers of mail, lamellar, cloth, and a heaviness which would make all but crossbows have no effect. 1 Aketon and 1 mail coat could have sergeants and knights look like pin-cushions (Surviving) long distance seljuk horse archery, I would imagine the much better armored cataphracts would be able to sustain themselves with much more.

Shadowcry, assuming you're playing the Seljuks, you'd be having a majority of club-wielding horse archers trying to mob guys with spiked maces, who are completely encased in mail and lamellar and cloth along with their horses very well armored in cloth and metal armor. I cannot see how the strongest man could manage to really effect man or horse underneath with a wooden mace.

I just did a test of two 90 man Western Turkoman HA vs 1 unit of 50 Kataphracts (Who have 28 armor, and 1 HP), they lost 5, I lost 174. I really do not find this unreasonable. I think players of the mod need to adjust to the fact that elites are going to be able to overcome a mass of the cheapest enemies.

The HP may be too much, but I do not believe having 1 Hp would make much of a difference. And I don't think it should, either. Cataphracts were made to combat horse archers - The very best Cataphracts ought to be the very worst foe for Horse archers.

[Miraj]

To be honest guys, I don't think you should expect arrows to have any effect on the very best armored cataphract bodyguards of the ERE/Armenians/Turks/Abbasids. We're talking about multiple layers of mail, lamellar, cloth, and a heaviness which would make all but crossbows have no effect. 1 Aketon and 1 mail coat could have sergeants and knights look like pin-cushions (Surviving) long distance seljuk horse archery, I would imagine the much better armored cataphracts would be able to sustain themselves with much more.

Shadowcry, assuming you're playing the Seljuks, you'd be having a majority of club-wielding horse archers trying to mob guys with spiked maces, who are completely encased in mail and lamellar and cloth along with their horses very well armored in cloth and metal armor. I cannot see how the strongest man could manage to really effect man or horse underneath with a wooden mace.

I just did a test of two 90 man Western Turkoman HA vs 1 unit of 50 Kataphracts (Who have 28 armor, and 1 HP), they lost 5, I lost 174. I really do not find this unreasonable. I think players of the mod need to adjust to the fact that elites are going to be able to overcome a mass of the cheapest enemies.

I don't think a cataphract should ever be felled by horse archery.

I agree.. but the Seljuk BG makes me cry. I lost half my Abbasid army to just taking down that bugger at Mosul!

[Ahiga]

I agree.. but the Seljuk BG makes me cry. I lost half my Abbasid army to just taking down that bugger at Mosul!

I killed him with 2 Armored Sergeants, 2 Quilted Sergeants, and a KoJ bodyguard. I lost 41, he lost 11.

Are you guys throwing Tier 1-2 spearmen and tier 1-2 cavalry at these bodyguards? I don't want to sound arrogant, but if you're throwing the cheapest troops at them and expecting to win by sheer numbers..well, you won't.

[Son of Mao]

I agree.. but the Seljuk BG makes me cry. I lost half my Abbasid army to just taking down that bugger at Mosul!

The Sultans bodyguard is the coolest BG in the game, it is covered from head to to in armor.

[the42up]

I think the best way to approach bodyguards would be the vanilla way.


To have early and late bodyguards, b/c in reality, atm, bodyguards are like 15th century armored horse tanks in a 12th century world.


Now if you get to the late game with things like janissary heavies, abna spearmen, and other HEAVY cav, bodyguards are not nearly so bad.

But when you have such extreme defense units vs tier 1 and 2 units... yeah this is what happens.

[John I Tzimisces]

What is the shield rating of bodyguards? If it's high, make sure you flank them...it takes the shield bonus away.

[Shadowcry]

I was throwing Khan's cavalry as well as the noble Has forget what they are called as well as Kychak BGs and they still manage to own.

[Ahiga]

On Hard setting:

• 2 Nubian Spearmen
• 1 Tribal Arab Sword
• 1 Faris Axemen
• 1 Caliph's Guard (Did not engage in the fight).

Charged the ERE, Nubians from the front, Tribal Arab and Faris sweeping around the sides. Managed to kill 13 of them before a rout, I lost 54.

I Imagine they gain a bit more in the campaign, but I am not having the trouble you guys are having. I'll try 1 Khan's guard, 1 Noble HA, and 1 Kypchak Nomad lancer at them next.

[Ahiga]

On Hard Setting:

• Kypchak Nomad Lancers
• Kypchak Noble HA
• Kypchak Khan's Guard

Lancers charged 15 man ERE bodyguard from the front, Noble HA and Khan's swept around from the sides. I lost 60 men, they lost all of them.

Are you guys playing on Very Hard? I'm not having nearly as hard of a time, although I am running custom battles - not campaigns.

[Aerrol]

I don't have specific numbers, per say, but I haven't found THAT much difficulty with bodyguards (albeit rebel bodyguards) playing as the Seljuks. Nor have I faced an issue with bodyguards in custom battles. I find that all one has to do is engage them, as Ahiga said, with relatively equal quality elite troops (i.e. your own bodyguard), and then surround with the rest of your army. You do lose some troops, but it seems reasonable to me - these are the elite of the opposing force, the men handpicked to protect their general! It should be noted I'm playing on VH/VH as well, before someone accuses me of playing on easy.

Nor do I find my OWN bodyguards to be ridiculously strong. I mean, with skill, yes, I can destroy a rebel army with just my general, but I've always been able to do that, even in RTW vanilla, MTW2 vanilla, various RTW mods (i.e. RTR), where the bodyguards are, presumably, not so 'uber'. I've managed to get a family member killed taking a city, where he was cut down in the rush through the gates (I had charged with my general, relying on his 'uberness' to break through the line and let my infantry in) by a mass of MILITIA. That's right, militia! So, in conclusion, I'm perfectly happy with the bodyguards. Yeah, they could be toned down a tad, but they're not as unbalanced as some seem to think.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Historically I don't think bodyguards were so destructive. Sure, if your horse and rider were covered head to toe in steel, they'd take a few arrows on the nose, but eventually something had to give, eh? Not to mention that in the Middle Eastern heat the armour would be a big downer (maybe less stamina for uber-bodyguards). If a guy covered in armour is attacked by four guys, he should lose eventually whatever they fight with. At Agincourt, French knights who made it to the English lines were outnumbered by the English longbowmen two-to-one, and thanks to the disorientating effect of the arrow showers and their own heavy armour, they were knocked on the head and captured easily by the English.

What annoys me is the fact that they have late era technologies and you get GB's free. This irritated me with the vanilla game as well, so it's not BC's fault. I mean, FREE. Half the time generals of history didn't even have a formal bodyguard and just stood with the heaviest troops in their army. Wouldn't it be great if you had to go to the capital to get your bodyguard and it costed a significant amount of money? I once succeeded as Scotland in using Guerilla tactics to take back Edinburgh from the English by just having my generals stalk the woods nearby, retreating whenever they met a superior army and rejuvenating their troops for free. Creative Assembly didn't think generals through, methinks.

Yes I know I'm an ungrateful git and I'm demanding too much... get over it .

[Valdamar]

It doesn't matter how heavily armored you are. Try killing 150 people with a mace on horseback. You'd reach muscle failure before you kill them all. It also fails to incorporate the fact that you can simply drag the man off his horse with enough men.

Advocating uberleet bodyguards places you in the text speak generation. ZOMG!!! GB!!!11111337

[frontier-auxilia]

Umm get some good spear unit to pin them then flank with cavalry or stack crap load of units against them after their main battleline is routed,i don't see a problem yet.

[notenome]

If your using mounted missile troops bring a long one unit of mounted javelinmen. Keep them in the back and have them fire at the BG at the flank or rear. First volley won't do much but after 4 volleys you'll kill 7-10 of them.