problem with archery + heavy cavalry

[AqD]

I noticed that if you give cataphracts a lot of ammo (30), they would never charge before running out of arrows - which is rather weird since javelin-armed heavy infantry always charge after firing one shot if you command them to attack.

I also found that in EDU.txt all the "prec"-archery units have low ammo (3 or 5), probably to fix the AI behavior. But why not just remove them? The 3-5 arrows cannot cause any damage anyway and it just slows down charge time.
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[morteduzionism]

But why not just remove them? The 3-5 arrows cannot cause any damage anyway and it just slows down charge time.

But it's 3-5 per man. When you multiply that over the whole unit...

Add to the fact that the damage caused increases with upgrades/experience...

I've seen 25-50% casualties inflicted on some units from the javelins of my 1st line Romans*(Hastati & Italic Pedites)...by the time they've[enemies] charged through that storm their mostly a disorganized rabble ripe for slaughter(when you're defending)

*I don't have my 2nd line(Principes) fire until the enemy is fully engaged with my first line...

[AqD]

But it's 3-5 per man. When you multiply that over the whole unit...

Add to the fact that the damage caused increases with upgrades/experience...

I've seen 25-50% casualties inflicted on some units from the javelins of my 1st line Romans*(Hastati & Italic Pedites)...by the time they've[enemies] charged through that storm their mostly a disorganized rabble ripe for slaughter(when you're defending)

*I don't have my 2nd line(Principes) fire until the enemy is fully engaged with my first line...

It's arrows not javelins. Javelins can pentrate armours and they have bonus against elephants etc. A bunch of 2-3 javelins are powerful but 2-3 arrows are just useless especially when you're firing from the enemy's front.

Also in reality no cavalry fire 2-3 arrows *before* charge - they don't work this way, instead those which carry both of bows and lances combine horse archers and lancers, and they can do both when needed (like half units to fire and the other half to charge), and they always have third weapons - a sword or mace for melee fighting.
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[Artax]

Also in reality no cavalry fire 2-3 arrows *before* charge - they don't work this way, instead those which carry both of bows and lances combine horse archers and lancers, and they can do both when needed (like half units to fire and the other half to charge), and they always have third weapons - a sword or mace for melee fighting.

You are right, but consider that it's just a game and RTW engine can't allow this. The modders did what was the best way to represent cataphracts with both bow and lance. I can't imagine how else it could have been implemented. Only other option is to make primary weapon lance and secondary - mace/sword, but then we lose bow, which, as you already mentioned, was historically used by them.

[morteduzionism]

2-3 arrows are just useless especially when you're firing from the enemy's front

:hmmm:...that's your problem right there.

Here's what to do:

Since they're cavalry, every battle that you personally fight save them for flanking. Once the battle is joined send them around the flanks to loose their arrows. How many in the whole unit?

I don't know how the AI computes it but if/when they shoot into the backs of enemies(after flanking)...many more enemies will die. I think there is a penalty for being shot at from behind.

Why should you do this? Because, out of the 3 top causes of an enemy army routing that one unit of Missile Cavalry has 2 of them.

1. Killing enemy general
2. Being shot at from behind
3. Being charged by cavalry from behind

So, you say it's @3 arrows? In a unit with 40 soldiers(small/med settings) that'd be @120 arrows. That's an arrow per/man for the Warband unit(120 soldiers)! The largest numerical unit on those settings. Noone expects them to get 1:1, but with an arrow per man...the odds are pretty favorable for mass killings. Especially after armor uprades and more experience.

After they've loosed their 3 arrows...guess what comes next?

You're making a major mistake. Particularly as it relates to this game.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD CAVALRY ATTACK AN ENEMY FROM THE FRONT.

Particularly with this mod. Units have been rebalanced(not that you didn't know that...but maybe it slipped your mind) and cavalry simply can't do squat when going head-to-head with an enemy.

[Brusilov]

I don't know how the AI computes it but if/when they shoot into the backs of enemies(after flanking)...many more enemies will die. I think there is a penalty for being shot at from behind.

They will certainly lose any defense bonus based on the shield. It's the same as if you shoot from the units right as the shield is carried by the left hand.

[Artax]

If you want to charge instantly just press "Alt" and attack. Cavalry will not shoot any arrows and will charge instead.

The arrows are useful when retreating after charge: they inflict damage to the enemy while you regroup and charge again or when chasing down fleeing enemies. Just set "fire at will" only after charge.

[Brusilov]

I noticed that if you give cataphracts a lot of ammo (30), they would never charge before running out of arrows - which is rather weird since javelin-armed heavy infantry always charge after firing one shot if you command them to attack.

Surely, if you want them to charge you issue the order to charge with the secondary weapon? The primary weapon is the bow. It's a feature of RTW games, two weapons max - primary and secondary.

I'm afraid that's a RTFM.

Edited: Artax beat me to it....

[AqD]

Yes you do, of course - but AI doesn't, so this give them a great disadvantage:

If both of AI and you have the same cataphract, and you command yours to run and charge the AI's cataphract - your cataphract would have their lances lowered before the AI's cataphract runs out of arrows, and instead of switching attack mode they'd stupidly continue to fire while getting slaughtered. It's quiet possible for you to kill 1/3 to half of the enemy before they realize they should use lances not bows in melee.
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[AqD]

Yes it's historicall - but not realistic! I think lance+sword/mace would be much better. Or there could be two types of cataphracts: cataphract laner and cataphract archer, just like in vanilla rtw.
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DIRTYGIRL

[morteduzionism]

Yes it's historicall - but not realistic!

Isn't this a contradiction? How can something that actually happened not be realistic?

[RedXIII]

Isn't this a contradiction? How can something that actually happened not be realistic?

I think he is saying that they historically did use the bows but they aren't properly represented in RTR.

[mcantu]

I noticed that if you give cataphracts a lot of ammo (30), they would never charge before running out of arrows - which is rather weird since javelin-armed heavy infantry always charge after firing one shot if you command them to attack.

I also found that in EDU.txt all the "prec"-archery units have low ammo (3 or 5), probably to fix the AI behavior. But why not just remove them? The 3-5 arrows cannot cause any damage anyway and it just slows down charge time.

'prec' in the EDU indicates a unit that will thrown a javelin/pilla then charge. These are almost always infantry units and not skirmishers.

If you do not want the javelin armed infantry to throw then charge, simply alt-right click to get them to only use the secondary weapon...

[morteduzionism]

Wouldn't taking the units off 'Fire-At-Will' work also?

[AqD]

But how can you tell AI units to turn off fire-at-will?
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[mcantu]

i'm sorry...i dont understand what the problem is with archery that youre speaking of

[AqD]

It causes the AI to act stupidly, because "prec" doesn't seem work with archery - AI units would fire all the arrows first (instead of one) before charge.
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[mcantu]

they fire them first because bows are their primary weapon and they are most likely set as skirmisher units

how is using your ranged weapons first, before a more dangerous charge, acting stupidly?

[mcantu]

I think he's talking about about javelin armed infantry and archer units (mounted and unmounted) interchangeably. Javelin armed infantry are the only ones with 2-3 missiles

[morteduzionism]

I think he's talking about about javelin armed infantry and archer units (mounted and unmounted) interchangeably. Javelin armed infantry are the only ones with 2-3 missiles

I'm lost now.

In Post #6 he clearly says he is talking about "arrows" not javelins:

It's arrows not javelins. Javelins can pentrate armours and they have bonus against elephants etc. A bunch of 2-3 javelins are powerful but 2-3 arrows are just useless especially when you're firing from the enemy's front.

Then in Post #13 he refers to the AI:

But how can you tell AI units to turn off fire-at-will?

I originally thought he was unhappy with his own factions Cataphracts and the amount/use of arrows. Now I'm thinking he was complaining about Cataphracts in general.

If it's his own factions Cataphracts then his issues should be resolved by simply using the cavalry to attack from the back as opposed to the front. If it's a general complaint about Cataphracts/Horse Archers...