Judaism and 'God's Chosen People'

[Exarch]

judaism, whether it be a religion or race,is an inherently racist philosophy, promoting the idea of a God's 'Chosen People' at the expense of non-jews.
The association that only one can be born a 'true jew', rather than a convert, is identifiably racist.
Racist terminology to describe non-jews such as 'goyim' are used, not dissimilar to how some muslims will call a non-muslim a 'kafir' (infidel).
It is therefore my opinion that judaism is a religion that promotes racism and discrimination agaisnt non-jews, and fosters a narcissistic complex amongst its adherents with practices such as eating 'kosher' meat, and (if ur around st ives, sydney) drinking 'kosher' coke, and using 'kosher' mobile phone services. i kid u not.

Besides this rather laughable, although worrisome, divisive practice, we have jewish schools that lock up like a fortress during school hours, as though to guard against unwanted gentile influences...

Discuss...

[different_13]

So your gripe with Judaeism is that.... it shows intolerance to people of other religions?

No, I get what your saying (I think) : Judaeism has issues based on 'race', which makes it fundamentally racist.

I'd hardly say having certain culinary practices makes a religion "narcissistic" though. I'm pretty sure most religions have these..

Racist terminology to describe non-jews such as 'goyim' are used, not dissimilar to how some muslims will call a non-muslim a 'kafir' (infidel).

Whereas Christians refer to people of different religious views "kind sir", rather than "heretic" or "sinner".

Beyond the vague racial implications, I don't see much of a point in what your saying. Religions divide people into groups. If they didn't, what's the point?
I stress the word "beyond" as race issues could of course be important.. But I thusfar fail to see how they're worse than any other form of religious intolerance.

[Exarch]

[QUOTE]

So your gripe with Judaeism is that.... it shows intolerance to people of other religions?

in a sense yes, in my experience, i've witnessed several jewish mothers not wishing their jewish sons to marry their non jewish girlfriends, although u could say it's a cultural thing, but it's no less racist, and no less unacceptable.

No, I get what your saying (I think) : Judaeism has issues based on 'race', which makes it fundamentally racist.

it is a fundamentally racist religion.

I'd hardly say having certain culinary practices makes a religion "narcissistic" though. I'm pretty sure most religions have these..

perhaps i didnt convey my words correctly. the narcissim is in the attitude of being a 'chosen people' by God, to the extent that they feel the need to seperate themselves from the possibly 'dirty' influences of non-jews.

Whereas Christians refer to people of different religious views "kind sir", rather than "heretic" or "sinner".

no, christianity is just as intolerant, by nature always seeking to convert others, rather than accepting them for who they are.

[different_13]

in a sense yes, in my experience, i've witnessed several jewish mothers not wishing their jewish sons to marry their non jewish girlfriends, although u could say it's a cultural thing, but it's no less racist, and no less unacceptable.

True, though it's not asif other cultures/societies don't have similar issues. How many inter-religious married couples do you know?
Hell, even plain inter-racial is still somewhat rare. At least, I'm certain many families still frown upon it.

it is a fundamentally racist religion.

I actually find that this is incidental. It is because (especially when the 'source' for these rules was written) there was no distinction between non-hebrew and non-jew. How many non-jewish Hebrews were around two/three thousand years ago? We've already established (and agreed) that most religions discriminate based on religious views, it's simply that with Judaeism, Race and Religion are closely intertwined.

However, you do have a point in that converting to Judaeism is a lot harder than converting to Islam or Christianity. In a sense the Jews want to stay distinctly different from everyone else, rather than wanting everyone else to become just like them.
Personally I prefer people disliking me because I'm not like them to people who try to make me be like them (and dislike me because I'm not like them).
At least Jews aren't sending Hashem's witnesses round my door (I know, I know, Jehova's Witnesses are a very small group, but you get my point).

perhaps i didnt convey my words correctly. the narcissim is in the attitude of being a 'chosen people' by God, to the extent that they feel the need to seperate themselves from the possibly 'dirty' influences of non-jews.

Hm, I'm still not sure I see the Jewish view of this as being very different from most religions views on the same subjects..
I mean, what possible dirty influences are you referring to?
If this is in relation to the schools, then (as the bridge builder stated) most religious schools practise similar... practises.

no, christianity is just as intolerant, by nature always seeking to convert others, rather than accepting them for who they are.

Good to see I'm not dealing with a religious loony here (also known as the "my religion is the best so my arguements don't have to be logical" brigade).

[Exarch]

[QUOTE]

I actually find that this is incidental. It is because (especially when the 'source' for these rules was written) there was no distinction between non-hebrew and non-jew. How many non-jewish Hebrews were around two/three thousand years ago? We've already established (and agreed) that most religions discriminate based on religious views, it's simply that with Judaeism, Race and Religion are closely intertwined.

Incidental or not, i find it distressing that the rabbis havent chosen to revise their rather racist beliefs in accordance with what is deemed morally right today. In Dawkins' 'The God Delusion', he demonstrates that while jewish children expressed disgust at a historically fictional genocide commited by a hypothetical chinese general, they expressed the exact opposite (glee and jubilation) when it was Joshua commiting genocide.
In fact, Dawkins records that the children said somethings which suggest the household they were brought up in was highly racist; expressing things like 'joshua cant enter the land of the goyim lest he become "unclean" by them'. racist no?

However, you do have a point in that converting to Judaeism is a lot harder than converting to Islam or Christianity. In a sense the Jews want to stay distinctly different from everyone else, rather than wanting everyone else to become just like them.

there's nothing wrong with wanting to retain ur own cultural identity, but this attitude that 'only a true jew can be born of a jewish mother' is undoubtedly racist, and implies a sense of genetic/racial superiority over other creeds and races. This is of course, reflected in the kosher mobile phone services etc which i used as egs in my OP.

Personally I prefer people disliking me because I'm not like them to people who try to make me be like them (and dislike me because I'm not like them).
At least Jews aren't sending Hashem's witnesses round my door (I know, I know, Jehova's Witnesses are a very small group, but you get my point).

i dont have a problem with ppl wanting to wish me well by 'getting me to heaven' via their vain attempts to 'convert' me, but unfortunately, judaism is so purposefully exclusive, and so contemptuous of non-jews (goyim), and inherently clannish, that one cant help but feel unease around this religion.

Hm, I'm still not sure I see the Jewish view of this as being very different from most religions views on the same subjects..

if, by 'most' u mean judeo-christian, u aint wrong. a lot of other religions are not quite so obsessed about being 'chosen' by god.

Good to see I'm not dealing with a religious loony here (also known as the "my religion is the best so my arguements don't have to be logical" brigade).

plsed to see i'm not the only one

[Каие]

Whereas Christians refer to people of different religious views "kind sir", rather than "heretic" or "sinner".

Christians invented the word infidel.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Catholic and Muslim schools do the same thing as does Islam as far as the discrimintion on the non believer issue. Christianity seems to be the only religion that has open doors to everyone. Thats just the way it looks to me.

Christianity hasnt always referred to non believers as "kind sir" (crusades, inquisition, reconquista, Christians first fashioned the word infidel when referring to Muslims in the Holy Land during the Crusades, The witch trials, burning of heretics, ect ,ect, ect)

[jankren]

Christianity hasnt always referred to non believers as "kind sir" (crusades, inquisition, reconquista, Christians first fashioned the word infidel when referring to Muslims in the Holy Land during the Crusades, The witch trials, burning of heretics, ect ,ect, ect)

Or heathen and anti-christ.

[Manco]

Racist isn't really the correct term. Don't forget that Judaism is a pre-universal religion. It should in this aspect more be compared with the ancient germanic, roman,... religions. Those were in essence only meant for one people as well and other people would just have their own gods.
With the rise of 'modern' universal religions such as christianity, islam, buddhism,... judaism is in fact a dated and perhaps obsolete religion.

BTW the difference between universal religions and others is that everyone can become a member of said religion. While these days you can join judaism, you don't become a Jew.

[MaximiIian]

Racist isn't really the correct term. Don't forget that Judaism is a pre-universal religion. It should in this aspect more be compared with the ancient germanic, roman,... religions. Those were in essence only meant for one people as well and other people would just have their own gods.
With the rise of 'modern' universal religions such as christianity, islam, buddhism,... judaism is in fact a dated and perhaps obsolete religion.

Exactly. It was and is an ethnic religion, and its mentality is ethnicist, but not exactly racist. It's the same idea found within Norse and Celtic paganism, and because of this, Judaism isn't too far off from her Indo-European counterparts.

Whereas Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and even Roman paganism, consider themselves to transcend ethnicity. Although Roman paganism was still quite nationalistic in its outlook and was more "syncretic" than "universal" per se.

But, this does not excuse violent actions done by Jews in the name of their religion, just as explaining Christianity or Islam or Roman paganism doesn't excuse their atrocities. Nor does it justify the persecution of those religions, or any other. It merely places them in a historical context.

[BNS]

The Jew's exclusivity is one of the reasons for the intolerance they have received.

Catholic and Muslim schools do the same thing as does Islam as far as the discrimintion on the non believer issue. Christianity seems to be the only religion that has open doors to everyone. Thats just the way it looks to me.

Christianity is more open, but even in itself theres much discrimination.

[Pontifex Maximus]

The Jew's exclusivity is one of the reasons for the intolerance they have received.

Christianity is more open, but even in itself theres much discrimination.

undoubtedly. but i think that christianity has a much stronger evangelical output.

[Pontifex Maximus]

hopefully i fall into this category?

[Maverick]

The association that only one can be born a 'true jew', rather than a convert, is identifiably racist.

From what book of the Torah do you get the quote 'true jew' from?

To my knowledge anyone can convert to Judaism.

Racist terminology to describe non-jews such as 'goyim' are used

There are black, white and yellow Jews and non-Jews, where do you get the idea "goy" incites racism?

It is therefore my opinion that judaism is a religion that promotes racism and discrimination agaisnt non-jews, and fosters a narcissistic complex amongst its adherents with practices such as eating 'kosher' meat, and (if ur around st ives, sydney) drinking 'kosher' coke, and using 'kosher' mobile phone services. i kid u not.

Do you not understand what narcissism means or...?

Every religion has its own traditions, eating meat that has been inspected for impurities from animals killed as quickly and humanely as possible is not one of the worst ones.

Have you ever seen a non-kosher coke? I'm also pretty sure there's no mention of what cell phone plans you can use in any of the ancient texts.

Besides this rather laughable, although worrisome, divisive practice,

Unless you believe in a Zionist conspiracy I don't think there's anything to worry about.

we have jewish schools that lock up like a fortress during school hours, as though to guard against unwanted gentile influences...

If you assume all gentiles are drug-dealers then yes, they are keeping out gentiles.

[Exarch]

From what book of the Torah do you get the quote 'true jew' from?

To my knowledge anyone can convert to Judaism.



There are black, white and yellow Jews and non-Jews, where do you get the idea "goy" incites racism?



Do you not understand what narcissism means or...?

Every religion has its own traditions, eating meat that has been inspected for impurities from animals killed as quickly and humanely as possible is not one of the worst ones.

Have you ever seen a non-kosher coke? I'm also pretty sure there's no mention of what cell phone plans you can use in any of the ancient texts.



Unless you believe in a Zionist conspiracy I don't think there's anything to worry about.



If you assume all gentiles are drug-dealers then yes, they are keeping out gentiles.

how about you reread the whole thread instead of just the OP, before launching into some sort of persecution complex inspired rant.

[Justice and Mercy]

judaism, whether it be a religion or race,is an inherently racist philosophy, promoting the idea of a God's 'Chosen People' at the expense of non-jews.

At the expense of non-jews?

What expense?

Aww, you feel left out?

The association that only one can be born a 'true jew', rather than a convert, is identifiably racist.

A belief system is racist if it's based on race?

Racist terminology to describe non-jews such as 'goyim' are used, not dissimilar to how some muslims will call a non-muslim a 'kafir' (infidel).

Christ, they have words for "non-jew" now!?

It is therefore my opinion that judaism is a religion that promotes racism and discrimination agaisnt non-jews, and fosters a narcissistic complex amongst its adherents with practices such as eating 'kosher' meat, and (if ur around st ives, sydney) drinking 'kosher' coke, and using 'kosher' mobile phone services. i kid u not.

Oh my God, it's horrible!

Besides this rather laughable, although worrisome, divisive practice, we have jewish schools that lock up like a fortress during school hours, as though to guard against unwanted gentile influences...

LOL! Yes, they lock them up because they don't want us defiling their schools.

Not because they want their children to be safe.

[Justice and Mercy]

anything else more meaningful to contribute?
y'know i think it's funny how u pretend (?) to be stupid to avoid answering awkward questions about an evidently racist religion.

Oh, silly me, I didn't spot a SINGLE QUESTION MARK in the entire post I replied to in my last post. It's incredibly easy to avoid questions that don't exist, believe me... most people don't even have to try.

And, assuming I wanted to "avoid answering awkward questions about an evidently racist religion", why would I have posted here in the first place? As far as judging intent goes, you get zero points.

[Maverick]

how about you reread the whole thread instead of just the OP, before launching into some sort of persecution complex inspired rant.

Said the person who couldn't answer to his ridiculous claims about a religion he's completely ignorant of.

(I also like how I'm the one going on the "rant", what exactly would you classify the OP as?)

Here's some more "rants".

in a sense yes, in my experience, i've witnessed several jewish mothers not wishing their jewish sons to marry their non jewish girlfriends, although u could say it's a cultural thing, but it's no less racist, and no less unacceptable.

I'm pretty sure that Jewish mothers want their grandchildren raised in Jewish homes, to imply it's a racial issue is completely arbitrary.

Incidental or not, i find it distressing that the rabbis havent chosen to revise their rather racist beliefs in accordance with what is deemed morally right today.

Is it your experience that Rabbis stone adulterers to death? Are they making sacrificial offerings? I'm pretty sure that even the most Orthodox Jews comprehend how different the world was many thousands of years ago. Would you prefer them to censor history?

In Dawkins' 'The God Delusion', he demonstrates that while jewish children expressed disgust at a historically fictional genocide commited by a hypothetical chinese general, they expressed the exact opposite (glee and jubilation) when it was Joshua commiting genocide.

And my little cousin thinks it's funny when other people get hurt but he cries when it happens to him.

In fact, Dawkins records that the children said somethings which suggest the household they were brought up in was highly racist; expressing things like 'joshua cant enter the land of the goyim lest he become "unclean" by them'. racist no?

Pretty articulate children.

there's nothing wrong with wanting to retain ur own cultural identity, but this attitude that 'only a true jew can be born of a jewish mother' is undoubtedly racist, and implies a sense of genetic/racial superiority over other creeds and races. This is of course, reflected in the kosher mobile phone services etc which i used as egs in my OP.

Again, what book of the Torah do you get the quote 'only a true jew can be born of a [ethnic] jewish mother'? If your mother professes the Jewish faith I'm pretty sure that makes you Jewish regardless of your mother's ethnicity.

i dont have a problem with ppl wanting to wish me well by 'getting me to heaven' via their vain attempts to 'convert' me, but unfortunately, judaism is so purposefully exclusive, and so contemptuous of non-jews (goyim), and inherently clannish, that one cant help but feel unease around this religion.

Jews aren't known for being evangelical. I find that someone tried to convert you very surprising and I'm sure they weren't Orthodox.

i think it's funny how u pretend (?) to be stupid to avoid answering awkward questions about an evidently racist religion.

Not directed at me but I'd like to say that "evidently racist" is an opinion, not an argument. Care to support that opinion with any relevant quotations?

Personally, if I was going to make a thread such as this (not my style) I would at the very least include some evidence to support my opinions. Some people might say to do otherwise would be to show how ignorant, bigoted and fearful you are of something you clearly don't understand at any level.

[Sleeper]

judaism, whether it be a religion or race,is an inherently racist philosophy, promoting the idea of a God's 'Chosen People' at the expense of non-jews.

Same applies to most Protestantism but worse (predetermination), and Christians, Muslims, the Japanese, anyone of a Nationalist philosophy based on race.

The association that only one can be born a 'true jew', rather than a convert, is identifiably racist.

Which is not true. Only some Jewish sects believe bloodlines are the end all.

Racist terminology to describe non-jews such as 'goyim' are used, not dissimilar to how some muslims will call a non-muslim a 'kafir' (infidel).

It is not actually racist as jews and muslims come from all races. The Palestinians have more jewish blood genetically than most American Jews.

It is therefore my opinion that judaism is a religion that promotes racism and discrimination agaisnt non-jews, and fosters a narcissistic complex amongst its adherents with practices such as eating 'kosher' meat, and (if ur around st ives, sydney) drinking 'kosher' coke, and using 'kosher' mobile phone services. i kid u not.

Or liking soccer for that matter. Or drinking Australian beer.

Besides this rather laughable, although worrisome, divisive practice, we have jewish schools that lock up like a fortress during school hours, as though to guard against unwanted gentile influences...

Better than home schooling.

Discuss...

Ignorance or Judaism?

[Exarch]

[QUOTE]

Same applies to most Protestantism but worse (predetermination), and Christians, Muslims, the Japanese, anyone of a Nationalist philosophy based on race.

and i'm not saying all of those religions are super-duper hunky dory. in fact, i have a major beef with any religion, including judaism, that promotes an ethnocentric belief. if u've noticed my posts on this site, u'll notice i criticize christians, deists, or any religion that places its adherants as 'chosen' by God.

Which is not true. Only some Jewish sects believe bloodlines are the end all.

but the fact that bloodlines still matter to these jews, is my gripe. Genetic discimination is still racism in my books.

It is not actually racist as jews and muslims come from all races. The Palestinians have more jewish blood genetically than most American Jews.

true, but it is racism to believe that one's race is somehow superior than all others; when jews invariably proclaim themselves as 'god's chosen people'. refer anywhere in the old testament/torah and you'll see it. i cant believe ppl actually believe this ****.
Then u have the ridiculous notion that only a 'true jew' must be born from a jewish woman, as opposed to a jewish convert.Genetic racism no? or rather, genetic narcissim?

Or liking soccer for that matter. Or drinking Australian beer.

explain to me exactly how coke is 'killed' kosher style, the way meat is?
if ur in sydney st ives next time, check out the Franklins kosher section. Kosher batteries??!! kosher noodles?

Better than home schooling.

how about going to school like everyone else, and learnign to accept everyone else's bloody religious beliefs or lack thereof, instead of putting the hild through some sort of cultish-type eduation reinforcing narcissistic beliefs in jews being a chosen people and decreasing time and empathy spent with non-jews?

Ignorance or Judaism?

judaism or nazism?