The portents are not good . . .

[Javolenus]

Hi Guys,

I started playing RTW a few months ago. I'm a PC game novice but enjoy history and military stuff, so was attracted to the game. I completed a vanilla campaign (unsuccessfully) but got hooked. Then I discovered mods.

I liked the RTW immersion but wanted something more realistic and more educational. I began with RTR, then played EB and XGM, and now I've returned to RTR, playing as the Gauls.

Despite many hours of play, I have never completed a mod campaign. It's not that I'm bad at battles - I win far more than I lose - I just get fed up with issues like:

1. Silly diplomacy 2. Having no cash for development 3. Endless invasions by huge stacks 4. Unreliable allies 5. Enemies with limitless cash and soldiers.

And so, in my latest RTR game as Gaul, I started, for the first time, giving myself cash using the cheat. The results are fairly amusing: despite giving myself 100,000 denarii per turn, I'm still poorer than Carthage and a couple of other factions. And I'm only 7th in the overall rankings.

Meanwhile, Illyria keeps sending full stacks to attack me every turn, even though that faction has only 4 tiny towns that look like mud huts. And even though I beat them in battles - to make it more interesting I started fighting them at 2:1 odds in their favour - they won't make peace.
And now Rome has attacked and taken a town off me.

I want to stop using the cheat, and thought it wouldn't be neccessary once I'd captured a few big towns, but I think I need an accountant to run things for me!

I wanted to give the Gauls a fair chance against Rome. Historically the Gauls were not poor and had gold to trade. They also had a reasonably large population and numerous warriors. I think Rome won by divide-and-conquer methods. But I wanted to give Rome a hard time and maybe even conquer Britain.

Perhaps all this will happen if my interest holds, but already I feel a bit cheesed off that I had to cheat with money. If I hadn't done this I'd proabably have been overrun and wiped out by Illyria.

I guess I'm looking for 'immersion' and a campaign I can engage with and understand. But I find the strat game so random that it's difficult to do anything but simply react. At least for me, anyway. That said, the battles are pretty cool.

But what does the community think? I guess, in this thread, I'm only showing how bad I am at the game! But I also wanted to express how frustrating the strat game is to me.

But the game is still awesome and I have nothing but respect for the modders.

Any comments welcome.

[Solaris]

What difficulty are you playing on! I don't think you're bad enough to be suffering with 100k a turn.

[Brusilov]

1. Silly diplomacy 2. Having no cash for development 3. Endless invasions by huge stacks 4. Unreliable allies 5. Enemies with limitless cash and soldiers.

What difficutly level are you playing at? I usually play campaigns at M/M with the exception of Rome and Macedon which I play at H/H. At higher level of difficulty the AI does get cash bonuses and also has morale bonus on the battlefield.

I am afraid diplomacy is hard-coded in RTW and RTW based mods.

Getting cash is always a problem in any RTW mod. You have to balance economic growth against military might. You need a sound economy to finance a decent military. If you build a large military you will struggle to finance it and will always be in the red (unless you use the money cheat).

One thing you can try and do is decide which settlements will be used to built military units and which for economic growth.

For an economic settlement you will need to build markets and upgrade them. Build roads between your settlements. With a 'civilized' faction you have the ability to build paved roads which will improve trade.

Make sure you send diplomats out to get trade. If the AI approaches you for trade ask for a small amount of money for the trade (1K for instance). Also if the AI offer you a ceasefire ask for more (5K at least).

Unreliable allies. The thing to do is to not have a new border between yourself and an existing ally. Also if you don't have a common border make sure you don't have one until you are ready for it.

Which factions have unlimited cash? Maybe you confuse that with factions with decent economies (Rome, Macedon).

Sometimes it's easiest to wage economic war against someone you are at war against. Send a spy or diplomat into the AI's rear area to spy out areas with little military and small garrisons. Launch a naval invasion, sack a settlement or two and destroy all buildings. It does slow down the AI, believe me.

[Quinn Inuit]

Agreed. The difficulty is likely the key here.

FWIW, I'm working very hard to develop solutions to the "Where'd all these stacks come from?" problem in the next version of the ExRM. Initial research is promising, but the balancing is not where it needs to be yet. My goal is to create a game where seeing a full stack even in the mid-game is a rare occurrence.

I have a hunch that factions that are at war with the human player get cash boosts at higher levels, but if I crank up unit costs sufficiently I may be able to overwhelm the boosts.

[Javolenus]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for these quick repsonses. The anwers are great and have given me much to think about. Using combined ops (spies, diplomats, naval and land forces) to destroy enemy infrastructure never occurred to me! good idea.

As for difficulty level, I always play on M/M.

I should emphasize that part of the problem is my own lack of patience, as I tend to want to reach a 'historical'-type situation, rather than play a 'total war'-type situation, if you know what i mean? I have flitted between different mods and factions trying out different things, while looking for a game environment I feel comfortable in.

I am not a modder myself, and have great respect for the work that's been done so far. I think the best compliment to the modders is to say that it's probably impossible now to play RTW vanilla.

But I think I have yet to get my head around the nuances of strat game play, although I'm not bad tactically on the battlefield.

But thanks for the advice - keep it coming!

[Brusilov]

But thanks for the advice - keep it coming!

The one thing you may want to do is play a fairly easy faction at the start (i.e. a powerful one or one that can become very powerful) and then progress from there.

I'd suggest a Rome or Macedon campaign for a start. These are both 'civilized' factions and can build paved roads and highways (barbarians can't build paved roads). This means your economy will improve if you manage it properly.

Rome is in a very central position in the game and you have many options to go from there. Also they have very capable military units. The only thing you need to remember is that when the Marian Reforms kick in you will lose the ability to retrain many of the units you start with as you get all new ones. The thing to do is to merge the remaining old units together.

You don't get archers but the funditores (slingers) are a very capable missile unit. Also use your velettes (javelins) against elephants but they are also used to fire into the flank and rear of the AI armies.

Of course being central means that you are surrounded by AI factions and you may end up fighting on more than one front.

Your military should be able to take out armies larger than yours and even multiple stacks.

Macedon is also a very strong faction (or can be). Again in a fairly central position and the Aegean area is rich in resources and trade. It's a phalanx based army but you can get decent cavalry and they have archers, slingers and peltasts as missile troops.

Once you're comfortable with that then try some of the more challenging factions.

You should not need to use money cheats - just manage your economy better than you have been doing.

Also remember Rhodes gives you a 40% bonus to sea borne trade - it's worth the effort. The Aegean has a number of wonders that are worth taking.

[Javolenus]

Hi Brusilov,

Thanks for this reply. It makes a lot of sense. Also, I didn't know about the 'Rhodes' effect. That's something to take advantage of.

You have given me good advice - I'll see what I can do with it.

I totally agree that I shouldn't need to cheat with money. This is the first campaign in which I have done so. It has really been an experiment, to see what would happen. In doing so, the big surprise for me was that - despite regular cash injections - I was still not the richest faction!

The other point that bothers me is how a country that is much, much smaller than mine - like Illyria - can consistently field huge stacks against me.

But thanks to these replies, I now have a better insight into strat game mechanics, plus some definite ideas to try. Once again, many thanks.

[Brusilov]

The other point that bothers me is how a country that is much, much smaller than mine - like Illyria - can consistently field huge stacks against me.

Are they quality units or just average / below average? I've not fought Illyria for a while but I know they have a mixture of units available.

[reclaimer]

The other point that bothers me is how a country that is much, much smaller than mine - like Illyria - can consistently field huge stacks against me.

I think the settlements in Illyria have gold/silver resources and with mines, Illyria should be able to support a fairly large army

[Brusilov]

Personally, one of the problems I have with RTR PE is that I think the AI does create numerous fairly full stack armies even when playing M/M.

It's a problem that happens with other RTW mods when people have attempted to balance out the units. RTR PE is not as bad in that regard as Roma Surrectum (RS) (if you want to have an army fest game and not have to concentrate that much on the economy then that's the game for you (RS)).

I understand that is the type of game some people like, I just prefer a little less hectic (at times) game.

[Javolenus]

Thanks for the replies. I guess Illyria has some good tradable commodities in gold and silver, so can finance armies. The troops they send are not elite, just lots of them.

As for multiple full stacks, this is occurring all the time in my present RTRPE game. Both Illyria and Rome are eating into my Gaul territory by spawning multiple full stacks. Although I now have spies operating in Illyria and Rome, I never have warning of these stacks, they just appear and trash my cities. I can beat them off, but it's a bit draining (boring?) after a while. But I've encountered this in other mods, so I take the point that this not RTR-specific.

I guess much depends on your mood and energy levels!

[Brusilov]

As for multiple full stacks, this is occurring all the time in my present RTRPE game. Both Illyria and Rome are eating into my Gaul territory by spawning multiple full stacks.

Have you sent a spy to the Macedon area of the map to see how they are doing? Sometimes it's a bit of a surprise!

[Quinn Inuit]

Personally, one of the problems I have with RTR PE is that I think the AI does create numerous fairly full stack armies even when playing M/M.

It's a problem that happens with other RTW mods when people have attempted to balance out the units. RTR PE is not as bad in that regard as Roma Surrectum (RS) (if you want to have an army fest game and not have to concentrate that much on the economy then that's the game for you (RS)).

I understand that is the type of game some people like, I just prefer a little less hectic (at times) game.

Same here. I'd like full stack armies to be relatively rare, and full stack armies of elite units to be non-existent. Any suggestions on how to accomplish that with RTR-PE as a base?

[Aliksander]

I'm sorry, I may seem like a jerk for saying this but if you need 100K a turn just to survive you desperately need to practice your strategy more.

[Mythos_Ruler]

A fun tactic is when you are hit by the plague, use an infected spy to infect the enemy's largest cities.

[MasterOfThessus]

Some of my thougths:

1. To avoid beeing suprised use the Toggle_fow command.

2. Be cheesy! Find a good spot to defend (bridge, fort or mountain pass) and put one army there. While this one does all the work, you create a new army and go rampaging in the enemy weakspot. (get them there by ship, you find the undefended cities by using the above mentioned command)

It will take awhile, but you will notice the difference. Don't forget to exterminate and destroy every building. Hire mercs until they run out and then make a glorious last stand.

3. As for managing cities, have an eye at your generals. A bad general can do more harm to a city's income then a siege. Find your incompetent generals and include them in the above mentioned suicidearmy.

4. Read AAR's for tips.

[Roshak]

1. The way I look at diplomacy is just getting temporary allies, map info and trade rights and protectorates. This is Total-War so diplomacy is just not an option.

2. The key is balancing your army with income. If you like a better understanding of the game or just for some tips check out my guide in the link below (should still work).

3. The enemy will send out a lot of armies, one way to curb them is to fight them in favorable conditions. Sending out a cavalry army with some infantry on a high part of the map near the enemy can do you wonders. So use terrain to advantage.

4. See 1. Again no matter what you do they will turn on you in the end so make alliances with factions really far away or someone who is really weak of if they offer it.

5. Difficulty will be the key there but since you play on Medium/Medium that isn't the issue. Again a good balancing of the army and income is crucial to success.

I second that you play as Macedon or Rome for they are better. Also for easier campaigns I highly recommend you play SHORT campaigns. You only need 15-20 regions to win and outlast 1 or more factions. You can choose to continue if you feel like it but its nice to win a campaign. That's what I do after finding my long campaigns to be too repetitive.

[Javolenus]

Thanks again for the replies and good advice. I'll take all these comments onboard. And yes, I definitely need to get my head around the strategy game, but I'm learning something each time I play.

[Brusilov]

You can continue playing the campaign beyond the point at which another faction is victorious.

[Sphere]

Maybe you should try RTR VII: The Iberian Confilict. (Top of the RTR Forums page.) Its a mini-campaign so it has a smaller scope that is much more historical. You really only manage 1-3 full armies and less than a dozen cities.

The scripted events really keep the campaign moving, and you dont get bogged down in a stackfest.