Historical Battles

[Bosnian_King]

NAA cmo'n saneel i simple don't see why you have problems with that what Matko is doing, i don't see nothing wrong with it, and is this fact that Matko is no Bosnian reason enough to start complaining, his doing a good job as far as i can see there is nothing one sided about the Bosnian Banat it would be one sided if for example the faction religion would be catholic or orthodox than Krstjanin, hop you know what i mean, anyway we are getting OFF topic.

I agree with you. We have to be thankfull that they are doing this in their free time. Rescpect for matko and the others.

@matko

I have the family tree on my wall, illustrated with the portrets of the Bosnians kings. I see that you put a version of the family tree on the internet. I can take a photo of my poster-family tree and put it here. May be you could put it on the front page of the Bosnian Banate.

You are doing great work and I really can't blame you for being one sided because you are not. The only small thing is the name "Bosnian Banate" which should be "Bosnian Kingdom" .Altough the game starts in the year that Bosnia was still a Banate we know for sure that from Ban Boric Bosnia was considered as a fully independent state from Hungary. Bosnia was a kingdom in 1350., only the name was Banate because there existed procedures how to become a kingdom formally. I really think it is unfair to call Bosnia a Banate from 1350-1530 while we know that Bosnia was a kingdom from 1353-1463. We have to choose for the best options and not for the 3 years but for the 110 years that Bosnia was a kingdom. Please speak about this with the team.

greetings

[saneel]

In kingdoms : teutonic campaing, when denmark conqueres norway they change their name to Kalmar Union. That you could do also to Bosnian banate - change their name in 1353 to kingdom

[Bosnian_King]

In kingdoms : teutonic campaing, when denmark conqueres norway they change their name to Kalmar Union. That you could do also to Bosnian banate - change their name in 1353 to kingdom

Yes exactly. Just change the name after let's say 10-15 years to kingdom. Yust to be historical correct.

[Matthæus]

In kingdoms : teutonic campaing, when denmark conqueres norway they change their name to Kalmar Union. That you could do also to Bosnian banate - change their name in 1353 to kingdom

Yes exactly. Just change the name after let's say 10-15 years to kingdom. Yust to be historical correct.

if it is possible we will make it. this seems to be one of new features of kingdoms that i was unaware. i didn't bother to play any of the campaigns, so i didn't know this was possible.
we can make an event that will be tied to Tvrtko I himself. when he comes to certain age (so better watch him carefully so he doesn't die in meantime !), and if certain conditions are right (it will probably be required to hold all starting provinces + to conquer something, - your suggestions are welcome)... there could be an "Coronation event"

[Bosnian_King]

if it is possible we will make it. this seems to be one of new features of kingdoms that i was unaware. i didn't bother to play any of the campaigns, so i didn't know this was possible.
we can make an event that will be tied to Tvrtko I himself. when he comes to certain age (so better watch him carefully so he doesn't die in meantime !), and if certain conditions are right (it will probably be required to hold all starting provinces + to conquer something, - your suggestions are welcome)... there could be an "Coronation event"

That would be great! I think we Bosnians don't have to complain about anything anymore if you guys are able to fix this last detail.

[SomiQ]

I agree with you. We have to be thankfull that they are doing this in their free time. Rescpect for matko and the others.

@matko

I have the family tree on my wall, illustrated with the portrets of the Bosnians kings. I see that you put a version of the family tree on the internet. I can take a photo of my poster-family tree and put it here. May be you could put it on the front page of the Bosnian Banate.

You are doing great work and I really can't blame you for being one sided because you are not. The only small thing is the name "Bosnian Banate" which should be "Bosnian Kingdom" .Altough the game starts in the year that Bosnia was still a Banate we know for sure that from Ban Boric Bosnia was considered as a fully independent state from Hungary. Bosnia was a kingdom in 1350., only the name was Banate because there existed procedures how to become a kingdom formally. I really think it is unfair to call Bosnia a Banate from 1350-1530 while we know that Bosnia was a kingdom from 1353-1463. We have to choose for the best options and not for the 3 years but for the 110 years that Bosnia was a kingdom. Please speak about this with the team.

greetings

Bosnia kingdom sice when ?

[SomiQ]

Wich source will you use for battle of Kosovo 15(28) jun 1389 there are none.!!!
First news is from the pen of Russian monk some days later he sad that he heard of a battle but nothing more?

[Bosnian_King]

Bosnia kingdom sice when ?

Since 1377. Bosnia began to exist as an recognized kingdom. From Kulin Ban (1180) and later the Bosnian rulers began to call themelves "rulers by God's will" which suggests that they considered theirelves kings and indpendent. Hungaria did not want to recognize Bosnia as an independent state and tries to make a vazal state of Bosnia in 1355. again. The Bosnian Ban Tvrtko enters the Croatian towns of Livno and Duvno which belonged to the Hungarian-Croatian kingdom and makes an and to this attempt. Later he makes a stronger alliance with the town of Dubrovnik and conquers whole the adriatic sea from the Hungarian kingdom. This is when Bosnia entered europe "from the main entrance", or this is when Bosnia began to exist as not only an recognized kingdom but a respected kingdom too. After 1377. Bosnia remains a kingdom till 1463. After 1463. the Turks recognize a smaller Bosnian kingdom with the capital in Tesanj (north Bosnia) and this kingdom remains till 1581 but does not have any significance at all, it only formally exists as an buffer between Hungaria and the Otomans.

This is one of the many dokuments which were written by the Bosnian kings:

POVELJA DUBROVCANIMA IZ 1405 GODINE - KRALJ TVRTKO II



(24. juna 1405)
U ovu nepravedni rat, Uchinih s gospodinom Hercegom i po svijetu s vlasteli Bosanscimi i vishe togaj, da je vidomo vsakome: Kto godi je Bošnjanin ali Kraljstva Bosanskoga prije rata bil dlzhan komu godi Dubrovcaninu, volja na viri mu uzeto na gospockoj, a moze Dubrovcanin tozi istinom pokazati - da se ima Dubrovcaninu vratiti i platiti.
I vsakoje ubistvo chlovichje, krviprolitje, koji su u ovuj i nepravednu rat uchinjena, i vsakoje rane i ubijenja i zle richi i hotinja zla, koja su bila meju Bosanscimi ljudmi i Dubrovchcimi, oboji obljubismo... i jednosrdno prostismo i blagoslovismo I takozi pravimo i povelivamo: Da nitko ne uzmozhe, niti smiti bude uspomenuti ni iskati krvi, ni ine osvete, ni vrazhde, ni u jedno vrijeme - dokoli stoji svijet. Kto li se obrite, potvoriv se - da je gospodstvu mi nevjeran, i da se raspe. Sto sudije odluce nitko ne moze potvoriti. A shto je uzel vojevoda Sandalj i knez Paval Radinovich, volja ini Bosnjanin, ljubo Kraljstva Bosanskoga, komu godi Dubrovcaninu dobitak, volja ine richi u siju rat, tomuj uzetju da je sudja knez Vukac Hranich i sh njim vlastelin drugi Bosanski, koga sh njim Kraljevstvu mi poshlje.

[astron]

small clip...abot Kosovo battle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcstG...eature=related

[Bosnian_King]

Battle of Doboj 1415
Introduction
The year is 1415 and no it’s not Agincourt! The Battle of Doboj was fought in August 1415 between the Hungarians and the Bosnians with their Ottoman allies. Doboj is situated in northern Bosnia where the Rivers Bosna and Usora join.

Background
Medieval Bosnia consisted largely of the central and northern area of the modern state of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It bordered Croatia and Slavonia to the north (mostly under Hungarian control) and Serbia to the west. Venice held possessions on the Dalmatian coast as did the city state of Dubrovnik (Ragusa).
In the early medieval period Bosnia largely came under Byzantine control interrupted by invasion from Croatia, Serbia and Bulgaria. An autonomous Bosnia emerged in the early 13th century. Religious issues formed the excuse for Hungarian interference in Bosnia with claims (disputed by modern research) that the Bosnian church was controlled by heretical Bogomils. Ban Stjepan Kotromanic (1322-53) developed Bosnia’s autonomy under nominal Hungarian rule. Bosnia’s high point came under Ban Tvrtko 1 (1353-91). He consolidated the state and captured Serbian territory including most of the Dalmatian coast and parts of Croatia. In 1377 he even claimed the Serbian crown and Bosnian rulers thereafter used the title King. After his death in 1391 the central authority of the King was weakened and the nobles gained regional autonomy particularly in the frontier regions.
The early 15th century Balkans were dominated by Ottoman expansion and Bosnian rulers played a role in the coalitions formed to resist them. The first raid into Herzegovina was repulsed in 1388 and Bosnian forces supported the Serbian Prince Lazar at the battle of Kosovo Polje the following year. Bosnian nobles reasserted their autonomy in the early 15th century some supporting the Hungarians and others were allying with the Ottomans or their vassals in Serbia. The main Bosnian noble families manoeuvred for position and were often more powerful than the King.
Hungary in this period was the regional superpower ruled by King Sigismund. He was the ruler of the Holy Roman Empire and these wider European responsibilities impacted on the reources available to deal with his troublesome southern border.

Battle of Doboj
In 1412 Bosnia was at peace under King Stefan Ostoja who in 1411 had submitted to King Sigismund of Hungary. This peace included the leading Bosnians, Hrvoje, Sandalj and Radenovic. However, 1413 Hrvoje attacked Sandalj while the latter was fighting the Turks in Serbia and Sigismund declared Hrvoje a rebel. In May 1414 the Turks launched a major raid into Bosnia with 30,000 troops plundering the lands of Ostoja and Sandalj. The Turks proclaimed an illegitimate son of Tvrtko as King with the support of Radenovic. Hrvoje also called on support from the Turks and recovered territory taken from him by Sigismund.
In the summer of 1415 Sigismund responded and a general levy was proclaimed of the Hungarian barons. What is described as ‘a great army’ led by John Garai and John Maroti marched into Bosnia and met Hrvoje and his Turkish allies commanded by Isa Bey.

Bosnian counterattack on the left drives the Hungarians back.
Most historians agree that the battle took place near the fortress town of Doboj in the area of Makljenovac in the valley of the River Bosna. We know nothing of the actual battle other than the Hungarians were heavily defeated. Many were executed and others ransomed for 65,000 florins, a huge sum that required an extraordinary tax to pay it. One Hungarian noble who had mocked Hrvoje’s stocky stature by imitating a bull when he entered court was sewn into an ox hide and thrown into a river to drown, “If you bellowed like a bull when in human shape, now you have the shape of an Ox in which to bellow” said Hrvoje.
Doboj is in a plain surrounded by mountains and it is reasonable to suppose that the lighter Bosnian and Ottoman troops harassed the Hungarians in their journey through the mountains before they debouched onto the plain. This is the basis of the scenario presented in this demonstration wargame.
The consequence of the battle was that Ostoja and Sandalj went over to the Ottomans and this marked the end of Hungarian influence in Bosnia until the 1430’s. Radenovic was killed by Ostoja later in 1415 and Hrvoje died the following year. The leading Bosnian families continued to war amongst themselves with Ottoman and Hungarian support until the Ottoman conquest in 1463.

On the Bosnian right the Ottoman allies are forced back by the scythe wielding Wallachian Pedestrasi.
The Armies
We know relatively little about how the Bosnian armies were constituted and equipped.
The army would be made up largely from the contingents of the nobility, supplemented by some mercenaries, funded from Bosnia’s mineral wealth. From the Bosnian stecaki (gravestones), royal seals and the limited exhibits in the National Museum it appears that they were organised and equipped similar to the Serbs, although with Hungarian and even Italian influences (via Dubrovnik) in armour. The army composition in this game is largely based on the Serbian lists in the WAB supplement and somewhat conjectural, but gives a flavour of the forces available. Essentially the Bosnian army is a lighter version of their Serbian and Hungarian neighbours to reflect the mountainous terrain. The Ottoman allies would be an expanded raiding force largely based around Sipahi cavalry supported by Akinci light horse.
The Hungarian army (with Bosnian allies) was similar to other European armies of the period with the exception that they had access to quality light cavalry. As we know the Hungarians called out the levy for this campaign the infantry base would be the militia spearmen and archers drawn from the free peasantry (Jobbagy) together with light skirmishers and crossbowmen. The arm of decision would be Hungarian and German knights supported by Szekler and Cuman light horse.
The Re-fight
The battle is re-fought using 28mm figures from a variety of ranges although the Old Glory range predominates. The rules are Warhammer Ancient Battles (WAB) using the Vlad the Impaler supplement.
Further Information
John Fine The Late Medieval Balkans Michigan Press 1994
Pal Engel The Realm of St Stephen I.B.Tauris 2005
Ian Heath Armies of the Middle Ages (2) WRG 1984
David Nicolle Hungary and the Fall of Eastern Europe Osprey 1988
John Bianchi + Vlad the Impaler & Ottoman Wars of Expansion Warhammer Historical 2006
Dave Watson Late Medieval Bosnia for WAB Slingshot 248 Sept. 2006
For a tour of the castles and battlefields of Bosnia http://www.balkanhistory.com/bosnia.htm
For a tour of Doboj Castle http://www.dobojskatvrdjava.rs.ba/
[/quote]

[4th Regiment]

Guys, what have I read here, with all respect, most of you have superficial or common misconception knowledge about Battle of Kosovo.

I have started to read sources about it since 1989. when I was a kid and wonted to make simulation of it in good old Atari (in program called – Universal military simulator). What I found even than, there are no relevant direct sources. By know, I must say I know about subject the same as any Serbian historian (although mine education was in natural sciences).

If you want to read and learn more, there is discussion on this page, so I won’t repeat my self. Thanks.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...38#post3118138

[il padrino]

nice little duel you had there with erebus26.i think i more or less share your opinion

[4th Regiment]

Thanks, it was good and constructive historical discussion.
Welcome to forum!

[The Despondent Mind]

If you will really make historical battles it would be nice if you would always play on winners side.Except Kosovo where you can play both sides.

[dabela]

Will there be any historical battles?

[Bagatyr]

Yes there alredy have such topic.
I suggest :
Velbujd 1330
Rusokastro 1332
Battle of Maritsa 1371
Kosovo 1389
Nikopol 1396
Varna 1444
Konstantinopol 1453
Battle of Mohács 1526

[dabela]

Yes, but that topic is old, and it was suggested before the mod died... I thought that now we discuss it again...

[Bagatyr]

Well what do you think about my suggestions

[dabela]

They are good... That is prety much what ive had in mind... But im not sure about first two, cus the mod starts after them...

[2Shy]

Velbujd and Rusokastro can't be included - the mod starts after them .