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  1. #1

    Default BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    is there no gun powder units in BC ?
    Last edited by Ahiga; January 16, 2008 at 07:59 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Gunpowder units ?

    None for now. They might get added in a future release once we've researched and developed a plan for them.

  3. #3
    anaztazioch's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Gunpowder units ?

    If you are to add them, will they be ballanced or devastating ?
    I allways wanted to be able to whipe out peasants with 2 musketeer units. Sad that in vanilla each full volley (on huge unit stack - 80 musketeers in regiment) can kill up to 11 peasants :/ (peasants on huge have 150 man...) and thanks to superb slow counter-march having 3 volleys is best you can do :/

    Besides i think that exept Turks were there any other factions that used early gunpowder ? (Mongols and Khwarez could get some from fireworks from China and Korea, so do Ghanzi, Ghorid and India)

  4. #4

    Default Re: Gunpowder units ?

    I did some research on it awhile ago:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon_in_the_Middle_Ages
    • The invention of gunpowder and cannon spread into India prior to the Mongol intrusion in China, and thence to the Islamic world. The Islamic Karshuni manuscript has editions of gunpowder recipes from the early 12th century, and there is mention of rockets or fire arrows being used in the mid-13th century, primarily as psychological weapons, and primarily defensively.
    • The first mention of the composition of gunpowder in express terms in Europe appeared in 1216, in Roger Bacon's "De nullitate magiæ" at Oxford
    • Hand guns were probably in use at this time, with Italian scopettieri ("gun bearers") mentioned in conjunction with crossbowmen in 1281. [From what I read elsewhere, these would be the hand-cannons of Vanilla]
    • Defensive use of Moorish cannon occurred during the siege of Seville in 1248, and the siege of Niebla in 1262,
    • The Ottoman Turks started to use cannons against a Crusader army in Kosovo in 1389, but there are some records that Seljuk Turks used cannon against Mongols at the Battle of Köse Dağ in 1243.
    • It was written in the Tarikh-i Firishta (1606-1607) that the envoy of the Mongol conqueror Hulegu Khan was presented with a dazzling pyrotechnics display upon his arrival in Delhi in 1258 AD.
    • By 1340, light cannon were widespread enough in the Islamic world to end up in military inventories.
    • Hand cannon or hand cannon-like devices were reported to be employed against the Mongols in 1260 and in 1304, an unattributed manuscript also depicted fire arrows and long-handled handguns.
    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder

    The information can sometimes contradict one another - It says 1216 for Europe, and then says the Muslims learned about saltpeter in 1240. Which doesn't make too much sense as it'd give the turks 3 years to make cannons or 8 years to reach the moors and to be built as cannons. And then it says "The first major use of gunpowder is claimed to have been in the year 1118 trying to break the Firanjah from occupying Zaragoza". I don't trust that, though - Far too early.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    http://www.history-science-technolog...ticles%203.htm
    This is a pretty scientific approach to the use of Gunpowder in the Islamic world during the 1200s and 1300s. It outlines various historical occurances of either Greek fire, stuff that behaved like gunpowder, or was in fact gunpowder. Later on I will go through it and quote specific details in length, but a few that stand out:
    • In 732 /1331 Sultan Muhammad IV laid siege to the city of Alicante, of which the Spanish historian Zurita (1512-1580) maintains that “when the Moorish king of Granada besieged Alicante he used a new machine that caused great terror. It threw iron balls with fire.” [58] Hoffmeyer finds the report of Muslim gunpowder weapons at Alicante to be “difficult to deny”, given obvious awareness of such weapons at the time.

      In a confrontation, known as the battle of Tarifa or the battle of Rio Salado in 1340, the Arabs lost heavily to the Castillian armies and their allies. The Spanish historian Conde relates that in the battle of Tarifa the Arabs had employed machines of thunder that launched iron balls propelled by nafta, causing extensive damage to the towers and the fortifications of the city.[59]
    • Ibn Khaldun (8th/14th century) says that the Marinid Sultan Abu Yusuf Ya`qub, when besieging the town of Sijilmasa in 672-3/1274: “Brought into action against this town mangonels (majaniq) and ballistas (`arradat), as well as a naft engine (hindam al-naft i.e. gunpowder cannon) which discharged small iron balls (hasa al-hadid). These balls are ejected from a chamber (khizana) placed in front of a kindling fire of gunpowder. This happens by a strange property which attributes all actions to the power of the Creator.” [50]

      This precise information about the use of cannon came from a great historian. However, western historians of firearms in the nineteenth and the first part of the twentieth centuries questioned the report of Ibn Kaldun. Historians in those days were bound by certain fixed historical dates for gunpowder and cannon that could not be changed even if they go to the extreme of discrediting a historian of the calibre of Ibn Khaldun. We have seen above that portable cannon were used by the Mamluks in 1260 in the battle of `Ayn Jalut. Indeed, we would advance the view that in the Maghrib and al-Andalus, where petroleum was not available whereas potassium nitrate was known to be abundant, cannon may have developed into a siege engine somewhat earlier than in the Islamic East, and that the appearance of cannon at Sijilmasa as described by Ibn Khaldun was a natural development the veracity of which need not be doubted.
    From all research thus far, I'd put 1240-1260 as the date by which some sort of a cannon was being used by the Muslims. 1240 is recorded as for the Turks, and now 1260 for the Mamluks.

    There is a photo that was utilized by the Osprey artists featured on the site: http://www.history-science-technolog...es/Powder8.gif The description is as follows:
    • St. Petersburgh MS., p. 159, Illustration of the faris (knight) who frightens the horses of the enemy and the two foot soldiers accompanying him. On the right, the foot soldier is carrying a hand-held midfa` (cannon), and on the left the soldier is carrying a sprinkling club. The mounted knight carries a lance to which gunpowder cartridges are attached. The three men and the horse wear also fireproof clothing to which gunpowder cartridges are attached.
    • “The kings of old times did not engage in war except by stratagem. The Prophet said: war is trickery. This was the practice until the time of Halawun (Hulaku or Hulegu) when the people of Egypt used this trick and defeated the Tatars (Mongols). Horses (of the enemy) dare not face fire and the horse will run away with its rider. The way to do it is to choose a number of cavaliers and furnish their lances from both ends with gunpowder (barud [30]). The cavalier will wear a garment (qarqal) with its front face made of black thick woolen cloth (balas). It is strewn with balls of linen fiber (mushaqq) that have metal wires at their ends so that they are inserted into the garment and the helmet. The horse is also draped with thick woolen cloth (balas). His hands will be smeared with dissolved talc so that he is not burnt by fire. In front of them will be whatever they choose from foot soldiers furnished with sprinkler maces, crackers (sawarikh, explosive charges) and cannon (madafi`). They (the cavalrty and the foot soldiers) will take their place in front of the army.” [31]
    • This tactics of using the portable cannon continued throughout the century and was the precursor of portable firearms. Muhammad Ibn Mankali in one of his military treatises (written around 764-78/1362-70) [32]wrote:
    From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventi...ary_technology
    • Purified Potassium Nitrate [Saltpeter]
      Muslim chemists were the first to purify potassium nitrate (saltpetre; natrun or barud in Arabic) to the weapons-grade purity for use in gunpowder, as potassium nitrate needs to be purified to be used effectively. This purification process was first described by Ibn Bakhtawayh in his al-Muqaddimat in 1029. The first complete purification process for potassium nitrate is described in 1270 by the Arab chemist and engineer Hasan al-Rammah of Syria in his book al-Furusiyya wa al-Manasib al-Harbiyya (The Book of Military Horsemanship and Ingenious War Devices). He first described the use of potassium carbonate (in the form of wood ashes) to remove calcium and magnesium salts from the potassium nitrate.[98][99]
    • Hand cannon and handgun
      The first portable hand cannons (midfa) loaded with explosive gunpowder, the first example of a handgun (portable firearm), were used by the Egyptians to repel the Mongols at the Battle of Ain Jalut in 1260, and again in 1304. The gunpowder compositions used for the cannons at these battles were later described in several manuscripts in the early 14th century. Four different gunpowder compositions were used at the battles, with the most explosive cannon having a gunpowder composition (74% saltpetre, 11% sulfur, 15% carbon) again almost identical to the ideal compositions for explosive gunpowder used in modern times.[99]
      The Nesri Tarihi in the 15th century states that the Ottoman army were regularly using cannons from at least 1421-1422.[33]
    • Explosive Gunpowder
      The ideal composition for explosive gunpowder used in modern times is 75% potassium nitrate (saltpetre), 10% sulfur, and 15% carbon. Several almost identical compositions were first described by the Arab engineer Hasan al-Rammah as a recipe for the rockets (tayyar) he described in The Book of Military Horsemanship and Ingenious War Devices in 1270. Several examples include a tayyar "rocket" (75% saltpetre, 8% sulfur, 15% carbon) and the tayyar buruq "lightning rocket" (74% saltpetre, 10% sulfur, 15% carbon). He states in his book that many of these recipes were known to his father and grandfather, hence dating back to at least the late 12th century. Compositions for an explosive gunpowder effect were not known in China or Europe until the 14th century.[99][45]
    • Firearms [I feel this one is a bit unreliable though]
      In the 12th century, a primitive gun that shoots bullets, and later Aydinogullari using using guns firing bullets using springs and which are audible, show that guns were invented by Muslims in its primitive form. The Nesri Tarihi from the 15th century states that the Ottoman army used guns from at least 1421-1422.[33] According to research by Reinuad and Fave, the first firearms were developed by Muslims.[46]


    Besides the turks, the Egyptians would, the Crusader's old homelands would begin to use it with relevancy I believe in the 1300s (Though they met it in the 1200s in Spain), the ERE would begin to use it in the 1300s to counter the Ottomans, India may have had it starting in the 1200s. Khwarezm used naffatun grenades and naffatun flamethrowers, as likely did Ghazni and the Ghorids. Had those dynasties continued on then they would have used gunpowder too.

    The quality of Gunpowder weaponry, as well as how and where we implement is, is a reason for its far off arrival. Even then, this mod was established with more of an eye towards the past than the present, and with the ending date I believe occuring more around the middle of the 1300s, it's likely that any gunpowder will not really be lots of cannons or arquebusts (Handcannons do seem to exist in this period).

    Hope that helps
    Last edited by Ahiga; January 16, 2008 at 04:02 AM.

  5. #5
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: Gunpowder units ?

    will they vaugely look like these

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    SURPRISE PEOPLE, i bet its been a loon time since you seen Medieval Total War

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Gunpowder units ?

    Ah the good ol' days of MTW haha... Handgunners and Arqs were my favorite troops, used in combination (handgunners as the backbone and arqs and the skirmishing line they could route the best of knights!

    Anyhow since we're on the discussion this little quote used in the signature of my other alter ego on the ORG was one I pulled from some very interesting details about the origins of the black powder!

    "They did not leave their walls to fight them, but
    put them to flight with Celestial Artillery of
    Thunder and Lightning"
    -- Flavius Philostratus II
    This quote is repeated all over the internet at various sites, but I was not able to get much more specifics or details as to just what was the "Celestial Artillery" I guess I'll need to return to the ancient texts! But for now The following two sites that discuss that quote from the (3rd century?) Roman author Philostratus which point to India possibly having the technology first. The first one is rather interesting. The second one however, skip the UFO stuff and just refer to the quote. Unless you like UFO stuff

    OF THE CHEMISTRY OF TIlE ANCIENTS (see section 13)
    http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/we...phy/duten5.htm

    Machines in Ancient and Medieval India
    http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc107.htm


    Some additional info on gunpowder weapons

    The Company of Saynt George
    http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/intro.html

    The Arquebus
    http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/ca.../arquebus.html

    The following material is from a page that used to be on the internet years back about Early Guns, but I can no longer locate it so here you go:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    EARLY HANDGONNES OF THE MIDDLE AGES


    "There was a new noise in the world. A brilliant orange flash leaped from the tiny package of black dust. Thunder smote the ears of the bystander and a cloud of white smoke filled the air. There was a strong smell of sulphur, too, a hellish atmosphere that signified the presence, and perhaps the directing hand, of the Devil himself. Altogether it was enough to frighten any inhabitant of the Thirteenth Century. For this was an age when magic, both black and white, was an accepted fact, when Beelzebub was believed to intervene personally in human affairs, and when thunder and lightning were terrifying evidence of divine power. Yet this time these mysteries had been invoked at the bidding of man."

    -Taken from "Friar Bacon and his Secret Powder" (The Treasury of the Gun, by Harold L. Peterson)

    In discussing black powder firearms, people often ask where black powder had its beginnings and how it became a weapon. To answer that question, we must go many years back into history, to the European Wars of the Middle Ages, when Chivalry, Battle-Swords and the Armored Knight on horseback ruled the field of battle...

    As previously mentioned, the backbone of medieval warfare was the armored knight. Trained from youth to be a warrior, these "men-at-arms" wore heavy armor, rode armored horses, carried shields, and relied on sword and lance. Sometimes other weapons such as an ax, a war hammer or the dreaded "Falchion" were employed. Safe within their armored garments, they had little to fear from period infantry, which for the most part was composed of ill-trained, poorly armored and cowardly peasant rabble and freemen. Armed mainly with pikes, clubs farm tools and the occasional bow and arrow, their lines generally broke and ran in fear upon the approach of mounted knights.

    With the introduction of the crossbow came a new class of infantry, the professional soldier. Constructed of a short, but powerful bow mounted crosswise on a stout wooden shoulder stock, it incorporated a bow composed of a compound of whalebone or horn, wood and sinew. It was so stiff that it could not be bent by hands alone and required a mechanical device to bend it. Slow to load, it nonetheless possessed great power and was able to penetrate armor using a short, iron-pointed arrow commonly known as a "Bolt" or "Quarrel". Deemed to be an un-chivalrous device, the crossbow was prohibited first by the Holy Church of Rome and later by the Magna Carta.

    However, in about 1250 A. D., the English longbow began to rise in popularity in that country. By 1300, the longbow had become the national weapon of the English. A six-foot long elm longbow could hurl a three-foot long arrow with such force that it could penetrate a four-inch thick oak plank. Its only drawback being that it took years of practice to develop a skilled Archer. English law saw to this by requiring that all freeborn Englishmen between the ages of 16 and 60 own and practice with the long English bow. Backed by pikemen and cavalry, English longbowmen were a force to be feared when they took to the field of battle. Initially, the ratio of longbowmen to skilled men-at-arms was 1 to 3, but by the Fifteenth Century longbowmen outnumbered knights 7 to 1.

    In about 1250 AD, an English Franciscan Friar named Roger Bacon allegedly discovered black powder. A scientist as well as a monk, Friar Bacon supposedly discovered the explosive compound during experimentation. Some believe that he merely discovered Chinese or Indian documents describing the recipe for making black powder and "re-discovered" it. Despite arguments for Roger Bacon's discovery, historical documents have proven that gunpowder had been in use in China since 1000 AD and had been employed in catapult-launched bombs and grenades and in fireworks as early as the T'ang Dynasty.

    While Friar Bacon may have sensed the power contained in black powder, it took another inventor to discover it usefulness as a propellant for European Middle-Aged weapons. This occurred sometime between 1313 and 1393. Mostly a legend, Franciscan Monk Berthold Schwarz, also known as Black Berthold" was allegedly experimenting with black powder in a stone mortar when an explosion occurred. The stone pestle was propelled across the room and smashed into many pieces, thus revealing black powder's propellant properties.

    Who actually conceived or constructed the first gun is lost to history, however, what is known is that the earliest guns were in use shortly after 1300 AD. Known as "Handgonnes", these first primitive firearms were little more than an iron or brass tube, perhaps eight inches in length. Initially they were held in the hand, but this was soon found to be impractical due to violent recoil and the heat generated from repeated firings. Consequently these barrels were attached by means of brass or iron bands to a stick or haft known as a "Tiller." An English manuscript dated 1374 compared the tiller with the hafts of period pikes.

    Loading the early handgonne was a very involved process. First, black powder was poured into the barrel. A wooden plug was pushed then down the barrel and pressed firmly against the powder charge with a ramming-rod. Next, the ramrod was again used to seat a lead ball atop the plug. A small amount of priming powder was then poured into a touchhole atop the barrel. Taking care not to spill the priming powder, the "Gonner" [gunner] then raised the tiller to his shoulder, sighted along the barrel and touched a slow-match to the touch-hole, thus igniting the load and discharging the piece. Sometimes gunners would use a U-shaped fork to steady the piece. Other times, a tall shield, which rested on the ground, was used. Such shields incorporated a cutout window for bracing the piece and simultaneously shielded the gunner from the enemy's bolts and arrows.

    This whole process was fraught with problems however. First of all, accuracy often suffered because the gunner had to take his eyes off the target to locate and touch the slow-match to the gonne's touchhole. Then, the weather could turn poor and rain or mist could wet the charge or extinguish the slow match. The powder itself was often ballistically inconsistent. And then, the casting of the barrel could be flawed and the barrel might detonate, maiming or killing the "gonner" [I wonder if maybe that's where the term "He's a Goner" came from?!]. Finally, the line of gunners could be overrun by the opposing force. Soldiers armed with handgonnes were well advised to carry a sword, dagger or other portable [edged] weapon to back up their piece!

    Although they were little more than a novelty when first introduced, within a hundred years time handgonnes became refined and more powerful. Now a Baron could field a whole "Company of Handgonners", trained in very little time and armed inexpensively with a device which could reliably penetrate armor and unhorse even the most intrepid Knight. As one period writer recorded, "Gunpowder makes all men alike tall." Indeed, in 1364, the Italian city of Perugia purchased five hundred handgonnes for their defense.

    As a result of the weaponization of black powder, the face of military warfare was changed forever. No longer was battle a chivalrous event; now it was merely the means to a political or social end. These changes did not come easily, however. Knights tried desperately to prevent or hold back the use of firearms, in order to keep war "chivalrous" or "honorable." To make their point, Knights had captured Handgonners put to death or had their hands removed whenever they were taken under arms!

    The Knight's feelings were perhaps best described by Miguel de Cervantes, author of "Don Quixote" in which he wrote, "...the Devil's invention, it enables a base cowardly hand to take the life of the bravest gentleman...a chance bullet, coming from whence, fired perchance by one that had fled affrighted at the very flash of his villainous piece, may in a moment put a period to the vastest designs." The bottom line being that individual courage, long years of arduous training and noble birth were no longer key elements in battle; indeed, any commoner could now shoot and kill a Knight.

    However villainous they may have been deemed, firearms were here to stay and their value could not be ignored. In 1326 AD, England's young monarch, King Edward III, was presented with a book entitled, "On the Duties of Kings", which was especially written and prepared for his tutelage. It included an illustration of a gonne and described its operation and employment in battle. It is the earliest known [dated] picture of a gun. Soon, a wheeled multi-barreled battery gun known as the "Ribauldequin" was introduced. The largest of these were constructed in Italy in 1387. Three of them were constructed, consisted of 144 barrels arranged in three stories and stood twenty feet tall!

    Perhaps the most skillful use of handgonnes occurred during the Hussite Wars of 1420 - 1434. Bohemian hero John Zisca developed special wagons with heavy shields mounted on the sides. Once on the battlefield, these wagons were formed into circles making a field-expedient fortified position from which his gonners and crossbowmen could load and fire at attacking German and Hungarian Knights without fear of being slaughtered. The gaps between the wagons were defended by men armed with pikes and polearms. It was devastating to the enemy and those knights fortunate enough to reach the fortified position, were soon overwhelmed by foot infantry. Once in retreat, they were pursued by Zisca's own Hussite cavalry, backed by peasant infantry.

    Today, many people reenact the combat skills of the Middle Ages or the Elizabethan Renaissance periods, choosing to practice with, and promote, the sword, lance and bow. Some regard the handgonne as a wicked device that helped to bring about the end of chivalry and would deny it a place in history. Nonetheless, it cannot be denied that the handgonne helped to make "All Men Tall."

    Manny Silva 2002. All rights reserved


    I could also dig up some more info on the naptha and fire related weapons referenced in the wiki article above. Not sure if this is the thread to be adding research into or not?
    Last edited by Armatus; January 16, 2008 at 09:55 AM.

  7. #7

    Default BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    Excellent research Armatus and screenshot Roy. I think this topic can become a place for people to post information or ideas regarding Gunpowder.

    What information we could use is knowing how gunpowder spread into the Middle East, and what locations (individual cities, or regions) were famous for the production and use of it.
    Last edited by Ahiga; January 16, 2008 at 08:30 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Gunpowder units ?

    i love med 1 unit info

  9. #9

    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    I recently bought an Osprey book on the Mongol conquests, and they mention a "thunder crash bomb."

    Here's a link explaining what it is: here.

    Perhaps tomorrow if I have more time I can try to see if it was used against any peoples within the BC map.

  10. #10
    John I Tzimisces's Avatar Get born again.
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    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    Ahh speaking of gunpowder, Cannon towers are still in...dunno if that's intentional...

  11. #11
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    ahhh the good ol days!!

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
    Masaie. Retainer of Akaie|AntonIII






  12. #12
    Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Roy Mustang View Post
    ahhh the good ol days!!
    Ahh, nostalgic feelings, my heart melts! =) But I want to play Shogun even more! =)

    P.S. Is it just me, or both the interface and unit cards were MUCH better in Medieval 1? =\

  13. #13

    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    I've got a bunch of stuff to post, but I want to know first how do I frame a webpage? I've tried multiple things in the poster, but nothing seems to work

  14. #14

    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    Like this, you mean?


    fieldset

  15. #15

    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    nah what I mean is how do you have a complete web page appear within your post as if it was within a frame?

  16. #16
    John I Tzimisces's Avatar Get born again.
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    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    Oh Ahiga, I noticed your post about gunpowder and the ERE.
    The biggest roadblock the byzantines had to using gunpowder more than they did was the sorry state of their finances.

    If I remember correctly they had to hold orhan the gunmaker against his will in the city itself during the siege and forced him more or less to build them a large cannon...which backfired and exploded.

  17. #17

    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    Wouldn't it be neat if all large cannons had a risk of exploding in Broken Crescent?

    And by neat I mean make you never use one, ever?

    Good point John, that's one of the caveats that makes gunpowder inclusion difficult.
    • What happens to factions which disappeared but surely would have used it? [Khwarezm, Ghazni, Ghorids]
    • What happens to those that remained but never used it/made small use of it] - ERE, Makuria.
    • What happens to a massive Empire owning Anatolia, the Caucasus, Palestine, and Egypt not getting any gunpowder, but tiny Turkish Sultanate in Syria gets it?
    That's the stuff Broken Crescent's team has to consider and decide upon. A unanimous access to gunpowder is pointless, yet so is excluding it based on a history that doesn't play out

  18. #18
    Praepositus
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    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    well yu can always create a more general units that can be recruited as some levies in the game . for example yu can get gunpoder mercenaries from crete wich unter the venice occupation had adopted weapons lke these and this is how can byzantines get firearms or others but it would be logic the gunpowder access to be limited .

  19. #19

    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    Well one solution unfortunately requires Kingdoms...however: pull an Apache system and allow gunpower-based weaponry in such a manner. Within the limits of the engine this would probably be the easist path...

    But who gets access to the weapons first, and when?

    Edit; 'Pulling an Apache system' means that you get the weapons after you fight a few battles against them.

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    Zephrelial's Avatar Eternal Sorrow
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    Default Re: BC DISCUSSION: Gunpowder & Naffatun

    I can understand why there aren't any cannons.But why are there no catapults or trebuchets? This I can not understand.Btw I've been informed by my friend that there are no catapults or trebuchets,I don't know it myself,so I'd appreciate a confirmation from a team member.
    Shine on you crazy diamond...

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