Cav and 2h grip

**ETAIPOS** · January 15, 2008, 06:21 AM

I have to say first that what I write here is just my own opinion, and I do not claim to be sure of the things. If you have different opinion I'm glad to discuss.

I suggest we significantly limit the usage of 2handed grip for cavalry. From what I had read it seems this was generally Steppe/Partian feature, not Mediteranean/Greek one.
All we know on Makedonian horsemen point to 1h grip that I found refered as "xyston grip", as opposed to 2h "contos grip". 1h grip is perfectly well shown on Mosaic from The House of Faun in Pompei (so called "Alexander Mosaic"), "Kinch Tomb" in Macedonia and on so called "Alexander Sarcophagus" (overhand version). It had been tested by Connolly, and prooved very efective (using around 4m lance). The only thing it need is counterweight at butt end, and this is exactly the thing xyston is famed for - having two points. The problem is that all those representations show situation at the end of 4th century. Yet I'm not really convinced that much had changed before major Partian expansion, and even then effect was probably mainly visible for Seleucids and others around Partian influence area.

There is information in Polybius, that during battle at Mantineia Philopoimen killed spartan tyrant with lance hed with two hands. Yet this event (shown bdw in sculpture in Delphi according to Pausanias) seems to be rather exeption than rule (but it's my personal opinion).

This may be argued that 2h grip is much better in providing "firm" hold that allows better penetration, but before introduction of proper high saddles the "firm" grip is not so desirable as it may result in pushing rider from the horse! Conolly tests shown that 1h grip overrides any lower in penetration power with great accuracy, the tester (riding without saddle, only on piece of cloth) got around 95% hits and claimed that with just a bit of training it was possible to hit every time in the desired place.
He also claimed he will not try 2h grip if fear of being thrown out

.

So my proposition is - leave 2h grip for steppe/partian units and some directly influenced by them (like hellenic kataphracts) while others should have 1h grip. Also seeing the great job you do on sarissa butts I sugest making proper ones for cavalry - by adding second (somehat bigger) head at the end of xysta.

**rory o'kane** · January 15, 2008, 07:17 AM

i concur with this. only Kontos armed units should have the two handed grip - so kataphraktoi really.

**DR. Hobo. PHD.** · January 15, 2008, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by rory o'kane

i concur with this. only Kontos armed units should have the two handed grip - so kataphraktoi really.

well them and the sarmatians should have it as well.

**Keravnos** · January 15, 2008, 03:58 PM

and

What I see is the spear couched under right hand with the left holding the reigns.

This one shows the counter weight on the back end of the spear,

These are coins of Hiero II, last ruler of Syracuse. (Which ended in the first year of RS)
I think the case is settled.

**rory o'kane** · January 15, 2008, 04:49 PM

Good, so only the Kataphraktoi (as in all of them, Scythian/Sarmatian/Roxolani, Roman, and Successor States) should have the Kontos, and the rest should have the.... xyphos?