Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

[Vizantinac]

All those CoAs are from the famillies that existed in the VERY late 14 century and,in the case of Lazarevic Ordo Draconis,first quarter of 15 century. It is important to note that NONE of this CoAs is found in any contemporary sources,but date from later period.
As for "The Nemanjics",which Vlad Felix was so kind to post,it is simply derived from the upper Ordo Draconis.

This is more likely to be coat of arms thet belonged to despot Stefan. Note the "despot crown" on the top of shield. This CoA even makes sense. Unfortunatelly,we do not know the exact colours.

[Dushan the Powerfull]

Vizantinac:
What you say about the coat of arms of Dushan the mighty what i posted is true,but i disagree about the cavalry and army oppinion.Serbian army in late 14. century was well equiped with armores and weopones.The infatry was low equiped with armores thou but cavalry was wrey strong.It was not like in movie "Boj na Kosovu" definitly.Only true thing in that movies are helmets worn by Vuk Brankovic and Tamnavac and some of infantry armores especialy one worn by "Paramunac" the soldier of Vuk Brankovic.
Armores worn by Serbian soldiers were imported from Venice into Serbia.By the start of 13. century wealthy Vlastelins were buying them in Raguza and Durazio.It is mentioned that Serbians were equiped with full armores made of steel.The most acurate presentation of Serb army is on picture "Zenidba Dusanova" by Paja Jovanovic.


Also i want to say that big mistake is comparing medieval Serbia with Byzantine Empire and medieval Russia (Kiev and Novgorod).
And about the CoA of Tsar Dusan:The red eagle in yelow background was shurley not his CoA.That was the flag of Serbia in time when he was tsar.It is more likley that white eagle in red background was the coat of arms of Nemanjic fammily and Serbia.
The coat of arms of Rascia (Рашка) was white one headed eagle holding a leaf in his mouth with two horseshues in each of his fangs,and all that in blue shield.
You can find informationes and pictures about that in Fojnik armorial that dates from 15. century.
I also recomend book "Boj na Kosovu 1389" by Bane Kerac,there are many pictures done by the author and plenty of informationes about medieval Serbia.
People are very wrong when thay underestimate medieval Serbia and compare it with medieval Russia.Russia was in grate influence of Tatars in that time.
Serbia was wery strong Empire in that time all thanks to Tsar Dusan who fortified the state,but in time of his son all was gone with the wind.

[Vizantinac]

I am well aware of the strength of medieval Serbian army,I do not try to underestimate the power of Serbian state;however there are several misconceptios that are common among people.
Let's keep the period of the late kingdom and the empire (1321-1371). At the time Serbia was unquestionably largest and most powerfull state in Balkan. I never said that equipment for army was bad;as far as I can remember there are several orders stll kept in the archives that tell us about buying the armour from Venetians (I can give you the exact numbers,about 300 or something like that),however,Serbia could not be ahead of contemporary military advancment. Full plate armour appeared in the late 14 century,well after the death of Dusan. So it raises question what was cavalry like at the first half of 14 century. Most probably it consisted of scale armour (archaeological evidence confirms this) beacuse it was relatively easy to make,and every village blacksmith could make it with little effort,while some heavy infantry units used chain mails. Half-plate cavalry units vere reserved for the rich,those who were called vlastela,and who colud afford it,and for mercenaries,whose duty was to maintain their armour in top shape (there is oath from Herman the Saxon to duke Bogoje of Zeta,in which this is mentioned,dating from 1331-32) .However,as you stated yourself, it was not made in Serbia,it was imported through Dubrovnik and Venice. Infantry wasn't much worse than any other Balkan state,exept for Roman Empire of course,pikemans (some scale armour was found dating early 14 century), archers, arbalesters,and very little swordsmen. Of course,by the begining of the 15 century calvary was rearmed with full plates (it is unknown from what money),but several historians,including some Tatars,note that Serbian heavy cavalry in Ankara battle was formidable and unstopable.

About Paja Jovanovic;I belive you wanted to say "Coronation of Dusan/Proclamation of Code",not "Wedding of Dusan",but anyway...if you look carefully on the armour you will notice that only units equped with good armour (almost full plate) are Allemans standing by Dusan's side.All the others are equiped at best with half plate,not to mention that their armour is more ceremonial than something you vould wear in battle. But bear in mind,that they are not an army,they are nobles (vlastela) or honoured guests. Army was most certanly more poorly armoured than their commanders.


"That was the flag of Serbia in time when he was tsar."
There was no such thing as state flag at the time in any part of Europe.The only exeptions may be city-states.Just like nations,state flags are something that appeared centuries later.At the time we are speaking of there were flags used in churches,and flags used in different army units - never state flags. It is likely that army commander (in our case the emperor) had his own standard (not flag). Remember Uros Predic's painting "Bosko Jugovic",the young warrior carries a standard,but whose? Is it his,or his regiment?

(I will not speak of anachronistic armour that Predic gave him)
Also in epic poetry standard (barjak) is used as symbol of honour to entire regiment. So,trust me,there were no state flags. From earlier period there was one flag from the time of king Vladislav kept in Dubrovink,it was red and blue,but it couldn't be the state flag of Serbia at the time.
Fojnicki grbovnik (armorial) has never been proved as authentic. Suposedly it is from the 1340 but Solovyev (there is an excelent book from him on this subject) is dating it in the later half of the 17 century. It is all part of Illyrian heraldics,which I spoke in my earlier post. It was a hoax of admiral of Spanish fleet Petar Ohmucevic in 1584, who supposedly was descendant of noble famillies of Serbia and Bosnia,and who claimed right on the throne. Fojnicki grbovnik is nothing else but copy of Ohmucevic's grbovnik. I could be wrong when I say this,but since there is no proof that fojnicki grbovnik is autentic (C14 analyses has never been done because too big part of it would have to be sacrifised) I stay at my earlier opinion that there was no heraldry in medieval Serbia prior to verly late 14 century.
Russia and Serbia were two different types of states,and comparing them in ANY way is pointles and out of question.

[Dushan the Powerfull]

Yes i ment "Zenidba Dusanova" or "Wedding of Dusan".Here it is the painting:

[The Noble Lord]

Hey Vizantinac and Dushan the Powerfull, very cool pics.
Good work.


CHEERS

[Dushan the Powerfull]

Ill post some scans from book "Boj na Kosovu" of autor Bane Kerac.He draw a pictures of serbian army in time circa 1370-1400.Thay are wery good,you can use them for skins and models,there are allot of flags and banners shown there.

[The Noble Lord]

I heard of Bane Kerac's book on Kosovo.
Haven't had a chance to read it yet.


CHEERS

[Stakee]

Ive tooked the liberty to make an administrativ map, not so sure how acutare it is, ive made the borderlines mainly by the rivers from this sworce: http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=95683&rendTypeId=4

This came out, 6 regions:
1 Beograd/Belgrad
2 Craina/Timok
3 Novi Pazar
4 Kosovo/Pristina
5 Leskovac/Skopje
6 Nis

[Ali G]

its good map, they should use in the mod.

[il_duce_!]

That map is totally wrong.

[Stakee]

That map is totally wrong.

Ok but where have i mistakend?

[Romano-Dacis]

Well, we're not making modern Serbia for starters. We're making the Serbian tzardom, whose borders were substantially different from modern ones.

[The Noble Lord]

Ok but where have i mistakend?

The map is obviously from the last few months, thats why it is completely wrong for the mod. The Serbian Tsardom or Serbian Medieval Empire included Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, parts of Bulgaria and Greece. At that time Serbian Empire was one of the largest empires in Europe.

This is something more realistic:

[Baron Vlad Felix]

The Noble Lord
good map

[eizo]

Looks great keep going guys ...

[Stakee]

The map is obviously from the last few months, thats why it is completely wrong for the mod. The Serbian Tsardom or Serbian Medieval Empire included Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, parts of Bulgaria and Greece. At that time Serbian Empire was one of the largest empires in Europe.

ive included kosovbut didnt knew if this map was good of those times

im going to edit its internal borders to make some administrativ provinces, hope it will be usefull

[The Noble Lord]

ive included kosovbut didnt knew if this map was good of those times

I understand, but that map was just too new and totally wrong for the 1300s.

CHEERS

[Stakee]

I understand, but that map was just too new and totally wrong for the 1300s.

CHEERS

Yes but i just wanted to creat a map with administration(provinces), dont mind the date of the map, just the borders ive created

[Tzar]

Yes but i just wanted to creat a map with administration(provinces), dont mind the date of the map, just the borders ive created

Sorry my friend even provinces are wrong!

[Stakee]

Sorry my friend even provinces are wrong!

Eh i tried

Ive said ill make another map using the one that The Noble Lord presented
The administration goes like this:
1 Province: Macva-Bor, Town: Beograd
2 Province: Moravica, Town: Rasina
3 Province: Muntenegro, Town: Podgorica
4 Province: Kosovo, Town: Pristina
5 Province: Zajecar, Town: Pirot
6 Province: Albania, Town: Tirana
7 Province: Raska, Town Skopje
8 Province: Makedonia, Town: Tessaloniki
9 Province: Vlahia Velik, Town: Larrisa

And the map