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Thread: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

  1. #41
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Matko i post them hoping that some day you would help me too...:hmmm:
    You said that you need more images!!!
    Bulgarians...
    those are not bulgarians.
    from the left to right:
    1. armour from Dubrovnik (Ragusa) reconstruction based on statue of Orlando
    2. armour of Hrvoje Vukcic Hrvatinic (from west Bosnia) reconstruction based on illumination in "Hrvojev Misal", and bascinet helmet from Maglaj fortress.
    3. archer from central Bosnia, reconstruction based on several reliefs on "stecak" tomb stones.

    im 100% procent sure about that. but images are really good, if you have more post them. they will be useful for Bosnian faction.
    Last edited by Matthæus; March 20, 2008 at 06:02 AM.

  2. #42
    alien_t's Avatar В Съединението е Силата
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    those are not bulgarians....
    You are right. The warriors on that picture are not bulgarians(...but the light spearman on the colour picture could be).
    Bulgaria: Total War - Mod For M2TW
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    "...We are Bulgarians and and all suffer from one common disease [e.g., the Ottoman rule]" and "Our task is not to shed the blood of Bulgarians, of those who belong to the same people that we serve" - Gotse Delchev, Collective memory, national identity, and ethnic conflict: Greece, Bulgaria, and the Macedonian question, Victor Roudometof, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002, ISBN 0275976483, p. 79.

    "The Bulgarians, these are the people, who had everything they wished for. A nation, where the one who buys the nobility with the blood of the enemy receives titles..." - Magnus Felix Ennodius, description of battle at Margus
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  3. #43
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    As Sarmatian suggested, I'll post some links to a few pictures ("reconstructions") of Bulgarian warriors around that time period.
    This one is from Osprey
    I post these again, just in case (note that on that page there are also Tatar, Ottoman and Western warriors). Note especially these Bulgarians and this Cuman
    I like also these pictures, but they're pretty artistically decorated though and from around a century earlier

  4. #44

    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Great pictures. Thanks NikeBG. Soon enough we will start work on the Bulgarians, and all this pictures really help.

    TTW GRANDMASTER

  5. #45

    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by NikeBG View Post
    As Sarmatian suggested, I'll post some links to a few pictures ("reconstructions") of Bulgarian warriors around that time period.
    This one is from Osprey
    I post these again, just in case (note that on that page there are also Tatar, Ottoman and Western warriors). Note especially these Bulgarians and this Cuman
    I like also these pictures, but they're pretty artistically decorated though and from around a century earlier
    Great stuff,again
    Thanks!
    The House of Wilpuri ~ Proud Patron of: The Noble Lord & Sumskilz


  6. #46
    ComnenusTheOne's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Emm...should the sword be a yatagan instead of a western european sword?

  7. #47
    Manuel Komnenos's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Wow, great picture Anthonius II., really beautiful.
    Why we dig up the past? To understand it.

  8. #48
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by ComnenusTheOne View Post
    Emm...should the sword be a yatagan instead of a western european sword?
    No, the Bulgarians never used yatagans by themselves, which is a Turkish type of a "sword". They used sabres and swords, sometimes Western European ones too, but mostly Central (especially imports from Bohemia) and Eastern ones.

  9. #49
    ComnenusTheOne's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    I dont know about it, i know that turks and byzantines always used curved swords, copies of the arabian swords. I thought that since bulgarian medieval army shields and armors were modelled after the byzantine thematic army, they would have similar curved swords. Maybe someone can enlighten me about it?

  10. #50
    The_Bulgar_Slayer's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    After the crusading time period, especially the 4th Crusade in 1203-04, Western weapons like straight swords become much more commonplace in the Balkans, so straight swords are reasonable for any Balkan faction in this time, even the Byzantines.

    Official Byzantine Historian for Tzardoms:Total War

  11. #51
    ComnenusTheOne's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Is it possible to have different types of swords to appear tho? Some curvy, some straight?

  12. #52

    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by ComnenusTheOne View Post
    Is it possible to have different types of swords to appear tho? Some curvy, some straight?
    Yes
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  13. #53
    ComnenusTheOne's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Well that means that some swords can be straight and others curvy, trying to represent the transition between swordsmithing methods.

  14. #54
    Sarmatian's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    There will be some curved swords for Bulgarians, that was not the issue. Curved sword and Yatagan are two different things, and Yatagan was a specific turkish type of curved sword. That's what NikeBG tried to say...


  15. #55
    ComnenusTheOne's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    There will be some curved swords for Bulgarians, that was not the issue. Curved sword and Yatagan are two different things, and Yatagan was a specific turkish type of curved sword. That's what NikeBG tried to say...
    I dunno, we call all medieval curvy swords yatagans (except the japanese swords).

    Well, to make my self understandable, i wasnt speaking about yatagans only, but about every single-edged curvy sword. So its obvious that Byzantine and Bulgarian armies will not have arabian and turkish swords, but they would certainly have curved swords as a early and high era legacy of some sort.

  16. #56
    The_Bulgar_Slayer's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Yep, if you check out the Byzantine roster you will see I listed some units with "swords"(straight swords) and some with "sabers"(curved swords). A few of these may be subject to change though.

    Official Byzantine Historian for Tzardoms:Total War

  17. #57

    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    The yataghan is essentially a large knife (and this is what the Turks called it "yatagan bicagi", as oopsed to "kilidj", the Turkish word for sword), which was developped most likely in Eastern Anatolia during the late 15th century, and the earliest surviving example are yataghans from the 16th century, which belonged to Suleiman the Magnificent. It may be historically inaccurate to include yataghans in the mod, especially as early as the 14th century, but they do add a lot of flavour.
    The sabre is a completely different weapon. It is true that it came to the Balkans as early as the 9th century with the Magyar raids, or even earlier with the Bulgars, but this was long before the scope of this mod. However, it was still popular during the 14 century, because it came back with the Cumans and the Mongols. And then again with the Ottomans. From the Balkans and Eastern Europe the sabre eventually made it into all European cavalries, which evidences its popularity and superiority. Considering the Cuman and Mongol influence in Bulgaria in the 14th century, I think that sabre should be used alongside straight swords in the Bulgarian unit models for the mod, especially the cavalry ones.

  18. #58
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Yes, basically, this is a sabre, this is a yatagan, this is a kilidj and this is a shamshir. The last three are, of course, rather Turkish...

  19. #59

    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    Quote Originally Posted by NikeBG View Post
    Yes, basically, this is a sabre, this is a yatagan, this is a kilidj and this is a shamshir. The last three are, of course, rather Turkish...
    Thanks for referencing the site, on which my articles about the shamshir and kilidj are published, where I used excellent Hermann Historica pictures.
    The kilidj and shamshirs are types of sabres, and the shamshir is just the Persian word for a sword from ancient times. The elegant, curved version developped sometime in the 16th century and most certainly should not be featured in any models in the mod. The kilidj I can see already made it into some of the Ottoman models, which is great.
    Here I am attaching a picture of Tatar sabres. In the book they are published, the author Gotowski states that there are perhaps less than 50 total Tatar sabres preserved in museums and private collections worldwide. I have better pictures of similar swords and can post, if needed for Tatar and Tatar mercenary models. This type of swords is what I imagine similar to what was used in Bulgaria in the 14th century.


  20. #60

    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Bulgaria

    hey nike bg ( az sam bg 6to ne prati6 tvoite skinove na moderatora ili toq det e prai moda ... i taka 6te stane po lesno vmesto da se ma4at da pravat novi skinove i tempodobni )

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