Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

Well, its official; I am a fool. The first minor research I did for this mod revitalised my insterest in hungarian history. Over the past few weeks I have been compiling many of my own research into an overview of the socio-political elements of the Kingdom of Hungary in the 1300 - 1400s. Most of my information like my own drawn maps and sketches, source lists and family trees were on my USB flash drive, which I now no longer have acces to as it is likely in the hands of one of the vagrants of northern sydney (australia). Yes my bag was stolen from me on an innocent trip to the church/charity drive/some other innocent venture, and due to my foolishness my information was not backed up.

So i'll give you what pathetic sources i have left and weep for a while, and hope my interest is revatalised when I buy The Will to Survive: A History of Hungary, by Bryan Cartledge; the first history of Hungary ever written by a non Hungarian in the past 100 years. Very exciting

Till then... let it be known that I suck...

[Manuel Komnenos]

Maybe is better Lands of St. Stephen for name. Eh? Bc Kingdom in that time included Hungary, Croatia, Transilvania, Erdelj.

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

Maybe is better Lands of St. Stephen for name. Eh? Bc Kingdom in that time included Hungary, Croatia, Transilvania, Erdelj.

Well technically it was the kingdom of hungary and croatia (although it was never known as this) as the hungarian kings were crowned for both the nations, and a seperate comitate (sort of like a baron or magrave) would be elected as vojvode of sclavonia and another seperate vojvode for transilvania. The transilvanian vojvode was the only real position of semi-autonamous title, and only at sporadic intervals in history, transilvania was reunified with kingdom administration a couple of times...
Its pretty complicated I'll try to find some historical accounts of the kingdom from papal records...

[The_Bulgar_Slayer]

That really stinks \Vazul's Ghost/, I hope you didn't lose anything else important.

[Manuel Komnenos]

Well technically it was the kingdom of hungary and croatia (although it was never known as this) as the hungarian kings were crowned for both the nations, and a seperate comitate (sort of like a baron or magrave) would be elected as vojvode of sclavonia and another seperate vojvode for transilvania. The transilvanian vojvode was the only real position of semi-autonamous title, and only at sporadic intervals in history, transilvania was reunified with kingdom administration a couple of times...
Its pretty complicated I'll try to find some historical accounts of the kingdom from papal records...

Ok, please try. I know for personal union of Croatia and Hungary, but from where is then Lands of St.Stephen? And Vazul, what you think about this book:
Pal Engel Realm of St. Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary?

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

To my great dismay I have never read it, as I live in an area of sydney devoid of any good bookstores or outlets of intellectuality, and so can only get books that aren't on waitloss when i get the time to go to the central business district of sydney, and i don't have a credit card so online ordering is out of question... but I have my ways of getting around that

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

That really stinks \Vazul's Ghost/, I hope you didn't lose anything else important.

Thanks for the thought...
Only my dignity really, and that was mainly just scratched a bit

Well... back to the drawing board...

@Manuel Komnenos:

Ok, please try. I know for personal union of Croatia and Hungary, but from where is then Lands of St.Stephen?

NOTE: If you cant be bothered reading all this you'll get you're desired answer from the last paragraph.

Ok this is what i've dug up, the term Lands of the Crown of St.Stephen (Szent István Koronájának Országai) was a tarm that arose in the mid 1800s with the various civil revolts and social reforms of the 1840's and 50's; and was used as a trechnical term by Hapsburg officials to recognise croatia in the title of the kingdom (rather then being part of Hungary, it is considered to be part of the same political landmass of St.Stephen, as both peoples were catholic). With these technical reforms in administrative titles came the term Magyar Királyság (kingdom of Hungary), as a national revival of the Hungarian language arose with the freedom wars against the hapsburgs, which were accompanied with the Hungarians' view as to their own personal claim to their lands; so from these irredentist ideologies the term Kingdom of Hungary emerged. Before this the Kingom's title was very different and, thusly, the aforementioned titles should be ruled out for the mod.

The entire viewpoint as to what defined the nation was completely different in the age of the kingdom from its christian foundation to what it was in the Austro-Hungarian monarchy. From the establshment of the christian Kingdom by Vajk (St.Stephen) in 1000AD Hungary was a nation of mixed ethnicities in which balkan slavs occupied the coastline of Croatia ect. and moravianish (not quite sure exactly what their key geneology was in slav terms) occupied the northern mountains of what is now Slovakia, (as is evident in the formationa of a northern order of slavic knights loyal to the king known as the sedes of the ten lance bearers) whilst Magyars steppe migrants occupied the plains and major cities (major cities dominantly magyars and italians). From the late medieval age (1300s onward) this diverse population would extend to include vlachs and germans in the east of the Kingdom (Transylvania).

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I would like to request that any arguments anyone may have with the above paragraph could stay confined to private messaging mainly, as it would be off topic for the Mod and subsequent thread; and counter productuve. Thanks.

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During this period the viewpoint was of Hungary as a Western Christian Kingdom, and the official language of the Kingdom was Latin, which was spoken by both the citizenry and noble servants to the Comitatii (Margraves) and royalty. Not so much a Kingdom of Hungarians. A commonly found term in Hungarian medieval documents is "Natio Hungarica", which should not be mistaken as a term for the Kingdom istelf but for the Comitatii of the Kingdoms semi-imperical/fuedal administrative system. The lords that fell under this catagory were often not Hungarian but German, slavic, Italian or in later cases Vlachs (and a turk in one obscure case in the late 1400s, but thats disputed.) This term is found in Papal records to denote the multicultural lords of the Hngarian Royal Administration , and after the Golden Bull was enacted by Andrew II the Jerosolimitan in 1222, in Hungarian Royal Records concerning Royal diets and elections. The multicultural nature of the people whom this term denotes, and their upper class nature, justifies its Latin classification.

However, another frequently appearing term throughout the medieval papal and royal records of Hungary is that of; Regnum Hungariae (Kingdom of Hungary) and THIS is the term that reffered to the country itself. Example:
http://www.library.ucla.edu/yrl/refe...ia-preview.jpg
This is one of many appearences of that term, which was the commonly used name, however the folowing should be noted:
The Latin name was a simple denoting of; "Kingdom of Hungary" as it was the description of the kingdom in the 'official language' (latin). It was not the completely individual title of Hungary, just a commonly used term.

Although there is a lack of epigraphic and primary literary sources concerning this, references to it in primary sources from later periods and eyewitness accounts in scribed bards accounts gives sufficient historical validity to the fact that:
The official title bestowed upon the first Christian Hungarian King (and all Hungarian kings till 1850s) St.Stephen on Christmas Day (date is according to legend) in the year 1000AD by Pope Sylvester II, and thusly the title of the kingdom itself was Regnum Marianum, or The Reign of St.Mary. This title is the official, papal, cultural spiritual and traditional title of the medieval Hungarian King. This title resonates in the fact that
1: the Hungarian patron Saint is in fact St.Mary,
2: the standard bearers of the Hungarian Royal coat of Arms are adaptations of depictions of Mary
3: the official title of the ruler and land of Hungary was this, according to Papal decree, was this
4: This title also held cultural representations of an old Huingarian pagan deity, as is evident in the Hungarian name for Mary: Boldogasszony.

Therefore, in my opinion, the most appropriate name for the faction of Hungary is Regnum Marianum, officialy, culturally, spiritually and historically.

Hope that answers your question

[Manuel Komnenos]

Yes, and more of it Thanks. Then can it be Regnum Marianum or Regnum Hungariae?

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

Well either are good really. It depends on how technical you wish to be. The common name for the kingdom was Regnum Hungariae (literally meaning kingdom of hungary), and it was an appropriate name as it was a kingdom of hungarians chiefly, with three hundred years of hungarian kings ruling it, and many of the non-arpad kings were 1/4 hungarian and spoke hungarian. The crown of the country was commonly recognised as the crown of the ruler of the hungarian peoples, and it was forged by the conquests of the magyars. So... for all intensive purposes the faction is a Kingdom of Hungary / Hungarians. Therefore Regnum Hungariae is appropriate termanologically, culturally, linguistically ect.

However the official term was Regnum Marianum; because when the christian kingdomm was formed it was seen predomiantly christian before hungarian, as
was its effective purpose; a buffer zone from pagans of the steppes and muslims of the east. Because it was recognised by the pope, it was classified in official papal terms which meant that the patron saint of the kingdom was what defined it. So this title refers to the Kingdom more as The Christian Kingdom which is incidentally ruled by hungarians, rather then the kingdom of hungarians.

Its a bit like the classification of the U.K, you could call it England as it is effectively ruled by English, but it is technically the United Kingdom, as it has Scottish, Welsh, Irish and now pakistani and Indian etc. A scotch of the U.K would not call himself English just as a Croat of Hungary would not call himself Hungarian.

Basically for an appropriate yet simple but accurate name go for Regnum Hungariae. For the technical name that also takes into account other peoples of the kingdom and is just as historically accurate but isn't the colloquial term from its period go for Regnum Marianum.

[Csatádi]

I don't know there is a new version or not but the lilies have to be on the right side of the coat of arms even on banners.
If you are nitpicked the shape of the double cross changed to this period.
See this: http://www.akm.externet.hu/km/cimerek/cimer/001109.jpg or this http://www.akm.externet.hu/km/cimerek/cimer/001108.jpg.

I didn't read the entire topic but the name of Hungary must be Kingdom of Hungary/Hungarian Kingdom or Magyar Királyság of course.

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

You should read my above post. If the faction name should be what the faction would have been known as in the middle ages then it should be Regnum Hungariae as at the time the official language of the nobles and upper citizenry was latin, and therefore Magyar Királyság would not be appropriate. The kingdom was only called by that term with the national revival of the Hungarian language in the 1800s that was sparked by the freedom war. Regnum Marianum was the technical title of the kingdom of Hungary, as the patron saint of Hungary was and still is St.Mary, as you know. This name is used on papal documents, and the native name for it is never used until the 1800s.

[dome]

hello!

Manuel komnenos: Pál Engel's book is good you can use it

Cimbye: a bit too much infantry no? Armoured hussars only exisit between 1526-1600 and just a few. The armour is against the hussars tactics.

Vazul: The crown of hungary adopted very early the gunpowder. The first gunpowder and arms facility were grounded in Zara 1327. After that sigismundus built up a very good artillery.

d.

[Manuel Komnenos]

Yes, Pal Engel book is good, but is there something similar also in english?

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

The geography of Hungary has changed dramatically since the high middle ages, devastation, flooding and draining of rivers and advanced irrigation have made a satellites map of Hungary today rather different from the topography of the medieval kingdom. So I've uploaded a couple of maps from the 16th and 17th centuries that display geographical features that would not be present today, as satellite imagery would be invalid as a source when making the Tsardoms: Total War campaign map.

1: Hungaria, from the Blaeu atlas, displays forested areas and river systems in great detail. You probably already have this one though.

Link from the source site http://http://www.library.ucla.edu/y...u/hvngaria.jpg

2: Kingdom of Hungary, by Johannes Cuspinianus (Austrian Humanist and diplomat of the hapsburg court to hungary and poland, orchestrating the Hapsburg and Jaqellonian marriage of 1515). This map was made in 1526, shortly before the fall of Hungary to the Ottomans. North points to the left of this map.

Link from the source site (high resoultion): http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/lazar150.jpg

Hope it helps.

[il_duce_!]

I dont have those maps, great maps Vazul.

And BTW, I also suggested to the team that the western faction names should be in Latin. In this particular case, I suggested Regnum Hungariae.

[MagyarMatt]

I dont have those maps, great maps Vazul.

And BTW, I also suggested to the team that the western faction names should be in Latin. In this particular case, I suggested Regnum Hungariae.

I'd prefer it in Hungarian. In fact I hope all the factions and unit names will be in their respective languages.

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

I'd prefer it in Hungarian. In fact I hope all the factions and unit names will be in their respective languages.

Thats one of the main reasons the Latin names are being considered; the official language at the time for the upper citizenry, nobility and royalty was latin.

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

Edited post #54 to include links for the maps as the images were uploaded with poor resolution.

[Csatádi]

The geography of Hungary has changed dramatically since the high middle ages

Actually it didn't. There are less woodlands and swamps and rivers are regulated. Not so much for game purposes. The maps you linked are simply primitive.

Who is the mapper? Do you need maps?

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

Actually it didn't. There are less woodlands and swamps and rivers are regulated. Not so much for game purposes. The maps you linked are simply primitive.

Who is the mapper? Do you need maps?

Oh I misunderstood my sources then, I should point out that I have never been to Hungary to my dismay, and based that information of what some hungarians I knew had told me. Thanks for the correction. I have been having a nightmare finding maps of historical hungary so if you post them on this forum I humbly request you include sources if you please and if its not too offtopic... I really am desperate