Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

[Wallachian]

For 1345 not at the moment. But we are still waiting for the list of important Hungarian characters after 1448

[Lord Fóka]

Hello guys, I've just noticed that this thread exists about Hungary, I'd like to contribute a bit if it's still needed. On the noble houses, House Perényi, Rozgonyi and Pálóczi are ethnic Magyar houses, they all considered themselves Hungarians, I'd suggest to change them to being Magyars. I'm not being nationalistic, (even though I'm Hungarian) but it makes no sense to make nobles Slovaks, as Slovak as a national identity didn't appear until the early XIX. century. Slovaks (or their ancestors) lived in Upper Hungary, but they were of low rank. The first high-ranking noble to actually write in ancient Slovak was Stiborici II Stibor, but he died before the game start and was actually Polish.

It is nice that you represent the origins of noble houses, but it is not fitting to change the cultures of the Hungarian noblemen, Perényi, Rozgonyi and Pálóczi nobles held large estates in modern-day Slovakia, but they were Hungarian, they descend from Hungarian noble kindred. On house Báthory and Szapolyai, house Báthory does descend from house Guthkeled, (whose FOUNDERS in the year 1000's were Germans) but this should not make them ethnic Saxons, as they considered themselves Hungarians (almost every noble house did) and they are just a cadet branch. The origins of house Szapolyai are legit uncertain, there is no information on their background, or their parental noble house. We know that the Szapolya village was located in Slavonia, this could make them ethnic Slavonian, but I'd still recommend them being Hungarian as there are no sources which suggest otherwise.

The main reason why I brought this up is that it would be awkward to have all Hungarian noble houses be non-Magyars, especially Slovaks (!) as if you were a noble of the Kingdom of Hungary, you considered yourself a Hungarian. The reason why houses Zrínyi and Frangepán (from 1345 campaign) can be Croatians still is simple, they are nobles of the Kingdom of Croatia, they descend from Croatian houses and they actually believed that they are Croatians too. House Garai and Újlaki are also Croatians or Slavonians in 1345, but they also could arguably be Hungarians. House Garai is descended from a Hungarian kindred, the same way as house Újlaki does descend from house Csák (who claim ancestry from the founding of Hungary, straight from 895!) Even though these houses held estates in Slavonia, this would not make them Croats, I'd suggest changing them to Hungarians.

Anyway, I love your work, keep it up, if you need some characters, I can suggest some, the first being Pál Kinizsi, the commander of the Black Army of Mattias Corvinus, you can add Imre Szapolyai and István Szapolyai, they are brothers, they made house Szapolyai great. Their father should be László Szapolyai, and István Szapolyai would be the father of János I Szapolyai, king of Hungary, if you also add him as an emergent character.

[PavleSubich]

etnic slavonian?

[jurcek1987]

Hello guys, I've just noticed that this thread exists about Hungary, I'd like to contribute a bit if it's still needed. On the noble houses, House Perényi, Rozgonyi and Pálóczi are ethnic Magyar houses, they all considered themselves Hungarians, I'd suggest to change them to being Magyars. I'm not being nationalistic, (even though I'm Hungarian) but it makes no sense to make nobles Slovaks, as Slovak as a national identity didn't appear until the early XIX. century. Slovaks (or their ancestors) lived in Upper Hungary, but they were of low rank. The first high-ranking noble to actually write in ancient Slovak was Stiborici II Stibor, but he died before the game start and was actually Polish.

It is nice that you represent the origins of noble houses, but it is not fitting to change the cultures of the Hungarian noblemen, Perényi, Rozgonyi and Pálóczi nobles held large estates in modern-day Slovakia, but they were Hungarian, they descend from Hungarian noble kindred. On house Báthory and Szapolyai, house Báthory does descend from house Guthkeled, (whose FOUNDERS in the year 1000's were Germans) but this should not make them ethnic Saxons, as they considered themselves Hungarians (almost every noble house did) and they are just a cadet branch. The origins of house Szapolyai are legit uncertain, there is no information on their background, or their parental noble house. We know that the Szapolya village was located in Slavonia, this could make them ethnic Slavonian, but I'd still recommend them being Hungarian as there are no sources which suggest otherwise.

The main reason why I brought this up is that it would be awkward to have all Hungarian noble houses be non-Magyars, especially Slovaks (!) as if you were a noble of the Kingdom of Hungary, you considered yourself a Hungarian. The reason why houses Zrínyi and Frangepán (from 1345 campaign) can be Croatians still is simple, they are nobles of the Kingdom of Croatia, they descend from Croatian houses and they actually believed that they are Croatians too. House Garai and Újlaki are also Croatians or Slavonians in 1345, but they also could arguably be Hungarians. House Garai is descended from a Hungarian kindred, the same way as house Újlaki does descend from house Csák (who claim ancestry from the founding of Hungary, straight from 895!) Even though these houses held estates in Slavonia, this would not make them Croats, I'd suggest changing them to Hungarians.

Anyway, I love your work, keep it up, if you need some characters, I can suggest some, the first being Pál Kinizsi, the commander of the Black Army of Mattias Corvinus, you can add Imre Szapolyai and István Szapolyai, they are brothers, they made house Szapolyai great. Their father should be László Szapolyai, and István Szapolyai would be the father of János I Szapolyai, king of Hungary, if you also add him as an emergent character.

Thanks for posting but please do not consider any national identities in regards to these traits. These were made by miszel following the example from EBII and are there to add flavour. We may call them "ethnic" traits but this is in no way accurate. Firstly there was no ethnic awareness in those times like there is today, and secondly it would be inaccurate to just have a single ethnicity for each character due to all the mixing with foreign noble houses. So a more accurate description of these traits would be geographical rather than nationalistic.

For example Janos Hunyadi was catholic and considered himself as a Hungarian but he has Transilvanian trait instead of Hungarian. Or another example, for Austria and Cilli we have Styrian trait but that could mean either Austrian or Slovenian so again it's a geographical term, that he comes from Styria, instead of a nationalistic one. Maybe we could rename the Slovak trait to Upper Hungarian? But it already says this in the trait's description. Pálóczi and Báthory are both Magyar. Didn't know the latter was of German origin but they would have been fully Magyarized by the 15th Century.

Pál Kinizsi is a starting character (he was born in 1432), as are both Szapolyai brothers. Janos, the future king, is an emergent character.

[Wallachian]

Yeah very good explanation from jurcek. The traits are just a fun way to differentiate people within a faction and are not really related to ethnic identities necessarily, sometimes they are more regional things.

It's a just a nice way to have little subgroups within a faction. Not to be taken too literal.

I do think we should change Slovak to Upper Hungarian yes.

I'm also thinking it might be cool to add the Jagiellonian kings somehow to Hungary but no idea how. Maybe a yes/no event to adopt them into the main family tree and choose between either John Corvinus or Vladislav Jagiello as the next ruler? I'm guessing it would be quite complicated.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Sounds good, any result should result in a potential rebellion among the nobility who sided with loosing candidate

[Lord Fóka]

Thanks for the explanation Jurcek, now I see it, in 1345 some factions literally had regional representation, such as Naples with the Calabrian, Apulese, etc traits, or Byzantium with Constantinopolitan, Thessalonian, Frank, Mainland Greek, that is cool. If you want to make the same for Hungary then you should change Slovak to Upper Hungarian, you can keep Slavonian, (the player can interpret it as they want to) and you can obviously use Magyar, Transylvanian, Croatian and Saxon, just like in the early campaign. The reason I wanted to post is because making medieval Hungarian noblemen Slovaks was a bit too much of a strech and kind of inaccurate, contrary to the high Tsardoms standards.

It would be cool if you could simulate the years after the death of Mátyás Hunyadi, but the m2tw engine is quite limiting. Can you actually add Ulászló I to the family tree and make him faction leader, but an off-map character too and do the same with his son? This way, you could "simulate" the personal union between Hungary and Bohemia. Part of me would like to have Ulászló and his son, Lajos II as playable, regular characters, as they actually had their court at Buda.

Maybe if Hungary is played by the player, you could have a script that gives them the 3 Bohemian settlements and the Bohemian king ancillary upon choosing Ulászló I as king, then János Corvin could spawn with a rebel stack.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Who 'owns' Severin in this period? Is it Wallachia or is it the a Hungarian banate?

[PavleSubich]

Thanks for posting but please do not consider any national identities in regards to these traits. These were made by miszel following the example from EBII and are there to add flavour. We may call them "ethnic" traits but this is in no way accurate. Firstly there was no ethnic awareness in those times like there is today, and secondly it would be inaccurate to just have a single ethnicity for each character due to all the mixing with foreign noble houses. So a more accurate description of these traits would be geographical rather than nationalistic.

For example Janos Hunyadi was catholic and considered himself as a Hungarian but he has Transilvanian trait instead of Hungarian. Or another example, for Austria and Cilli we have Styrian trait but that could mean either Austrian or Slovenian so again it's a geographical term, that he comes from Styria, instead of a nationalistic one. Maybe we could rename the Slovak trait to Upper Hungarian? But it already says this in the trait's description. Pálóczi and Báthory are both Magyar. Didn't know the latter was of German origin but they would have been fully Magyarized by the 15th Century.

Pál Kinizsi is a starting character (he was born in 1432), as are both Szapolyai brothers. Janos, the future king, is an emergent character.

you mean there were no national awarenes,rtnicity n old times vas more relevant than today
Etnicity defied from what u are aloved to work till whom you are aloved to marry.In medieval time you would be aware of your ewery molecul of blood LOL.

[Lord Fóka]

Also, I've read through of some of the older suggestion and I must say that I'm against the idea of transferring Pest to the faction of Cilli. It's true that the houses Cillei and Garai were related and in a baronial league, competing with the Hunyadi-Szilágyi league, but it is highly unlikely that Pest, held by the Garais would owe allegiance to Cilli. It is incredibly tough to accurately represent the medieval relations of the XV. century, but basically Cilli could be an independent entity, as the Counts of Cilli were imperial princes, rivaling the Habsburgs. However, regarding their domains in Croatia, they owed vassalage to the king of Hungary, Ladislaus Postumus. The skirmishes between János Hunyadi and Ulrik Cillei are private wars of two powerful Hungarian vassals, not the war of Hungary and Cilli.

For this reason, saying that Pest and László Garai were vassals of Ulrik Cillei is inaccurate and the suggestion that Pest broke free from the Hungarian crown is also ridiculous. The two aforementioned groups fought for being the regents of Ladislaus, they didn't want to break the country apart. In-game, Cilli is a nice replacement for Croatia, their original two province-size is justifiable, but giving them Pest is too much. I don't think that an AI would handle an enclave too well, not to mention that this way, Hungary starts severely handicapped, having lost a very developed city. History-wise, the Garais never operated against János Hunyadi militarily and it is even more unlikely that they would swear vassalage to the counts of Cilli, instead of King Ladislaus.

To conclude, I'd like you to give Pest back to Hungary, you can keep House Garai on the Cillei family tree, to represent the situation better, you could decrease László Garai's loyalty, as historically, he even conspired against King Mátyás, causing house Garai to fall from royal grace.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

An excellent post sir. I must rep you as an acknowledgment.

[Brezkimra]

After Death of King Mathias all at once the Bohemian, the Polish and the Austrian king also wanted to be the king of Hungary. The Hungarian nobility elected the Bohemian King, Vladislav Jagiello, and the war came soon. The other two king attacked the kingdom with their armies from the west and north. Vladislav won the war with the Hungarian banderiums and the hired remnant black army. The earlier defeated Janos Corvin also fought in this war for king Vladislav.
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Severin in 1448 owned by Kingdom of Hungary, but in game not.
Between 1447-1454 the Ban of Severin/ szörényi bán/ banus Zewriniensis was Mihály Csornai (hungarian "ethnic", familiares of Janos Hunyadi, experienced general, fight in more battle against the turks, about 35 years old in 1448)

https://www.hungarianottomanwars.com...ds/szorenyvar/

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At that time Mehadia pfs hungarian name was Miháld.
Diosgyor PSF owned by Hungarians in 1448, wasn't rebel.

Between 1440-1456 Pest wasn't under the control of Hunyadi House: https://imgur.com/OvWzOKe

[jurcek1987]

It is impossible to simulate real-life political situation in M2, king Ladislaus is the faction leader on paper only. He's a non-playable character who dies at the historic date so you can think of the Hungarian faction in 1448 as the Hunyadi faction. Originally we even had Janos Hunyadi as the faction leader but we later found a better solution with an off-the-map Ladislaus cos in the first case Hunyadi was called King Janos by the game. I don't mind having Pest as part of the Cilli faction regardless of the inaccuracies. The Garais were enemies of Corvinus IIRC. The loss of the city doesn't hurt Hungary cos they now start with Pozsony.

I don't see how it would be possible to add the Jagiellonians as a new rulling dynasty. We'd also need to kill the heir after Corvinus dies and it's impossible to predict who that will be in 1490. We'd also need to add the new noble house and there's no room. There will be major rebellions after Corvinus dies though.

The map we used to create the 1448 starting positions had Severin as part of Wallachia. Wiki also confirms this:
After the death of Mircea, Sigismund freed the Severin Fortress occupied by the Turks, and even made some concessions to the monasteries of Vodița and Tismana. Then Banate of Severin returned to John Hunyadi, who consolidated all the castles on the Danube. Around 1432, possession passed to the Wallachianvoivodes.

[Wallachian]

Unfortunately the nature of Medieval 2 game engine means that we have to make lots of compromises. This applies both to territory but also to things like faction rulers, families and even more so for personal unions. There is also the issue when a faction controlled a fortress but not its hinterland.

For Jagiellonians yeah I figured it would be impossible to simulate. At worst could we have it like we did with Sigismund of Luxembourg? Like have him adopted in the family at an earlier time and the player can choose whether he will be the next heir or not. For the families yeah it's hard maybe remove one of the existing ones. But yeah just thinking out loud. I know it probably won't be that easy

[Brezkimra]

The map we used to create the 1448 starting positions had Severin as part of Wallachia. Wiki also confirms this:
After the death of Mircea, Sigismund freed the Severin Fortress occupied by the Turks, and even made some concessions to the monasteries of Vodița and Tismana. Then Banate of Severin returned to John Hunyadi, who consolidated all the castles on the Danube. Around 1432, possession passed to the Wallachianvoivodes.

My source is Pál Engel's book "Secular Archontology of Hungary, 1301–1457, Volume I". According to this, in 1448 the Hungarian Mihály Csornai held the position of Ban of Severin.

[Anubis88]

I think it warrants to research the ownership of Severin. Wallachia usually outperforms Hungary, so giving Hungary an extra settlement might not be a bad idea if it is historically accurate.

[Brezkimra]

According to today's Hungarian historical literature, Severin (in hungarian Szörényvár or Szörénytornya) castle was then in the hands of the Hungarians. Mihály Csornai or his brother Balázs was the castellan.
In my mind, other parts in the region maybe was under Wallachian rule.

[jurcek1987]

Okay, I'll trust your sources more than wiki. That's also a good point about OP Wallachia. I'll give the fortress to Hungary, Wallachian AI will attack it sooner than later but it's better they expand in that direction instead of capturing Transilvania like they always do

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'll also need info on the Paloczi house members if available

[Brezkimra]

Okay, I'll trust your sources more than wiki. That's also a good point about OP Wallachia. I'll give the fortress to Hungary, Wallachian AI will attack it sooner than later but it's better they expand in that direction instead of capturing Transilvania like they always do

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'll also need info on the Paloczi house members if available

Thanks Jurcek!

In my best know the picture near Ban of Severin trait in your screenshot is wrong. That lion was the symbol of the local Cumans. This was the symbol of the territory in the 1430's:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiboo...Miklos.svg.png
https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%A...1g_c%C3%ADmere

Unfortunately I didn't find personal traits for Paloczi house members, just years. But I have finished their family tree. https://imgur.com/Ul68aU6

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

There is no mention here if Despotate of Srem, should thus be under Serbia? Though technically the Banate or Despotate is Serbian under the Hungarian suzerain