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Thread: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

  1. #301

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Based on historical research, I assembled the armies for the battle of Kosovo for the start of the 1448 campaign.
    The staffing ratio between the two armies and the types of units are well suited to the historical situation.
    Hunyadi's 1496 soldier against Sultan Murad's 2473 soldiers (in the game huge unit number setting). Historically, Hunyadi's army defeated by the Turks.

    I tested both sides in battles and we control either army, it is equally possible to win with good tactics and some historical knowleges about the battle (Do not forget to deploy sharpened stakes on the Ottoman side ).

    Janos Hunyadi’s army:
    1 – Late Royal Banderium (Janos Hunyadi) – UG0
    4 – Baronial Banderium (in gothic armour) – UG3
    2 – Mounted Sergeants – UG2
    3 – Wallachian Calarasi Horse Archers
    1 – Hungarian Swordsmen – UG2
    1 – Familiares Swordsmen – UG2
    1 – Hussite Halberdiers
    1 – Saxon Halberdiers – UG1
    2 – Hungarian Crossbowmen – UG1
    1 – Wagon Fort
    1 – Bombard

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Sultan Murad’s army:
    1 – Silahdar Corps (Sultan Murad) – UG2
    3 – Janissary Arquebusiers
    3 – Azap Archers
    3 – Yaya Spearman (AOR: Greek variant)
    2 – Akinji Horse Archers – UG1
    2 – Sipahi Horse Archers – UG1
    2 – Sipahi Lancers – UG1
    2 – Cebelu Light Lancers – UG1
    1 – Tatar Horse Archers
    1 – Bombard

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If You would like to playing this battle as custom battle, download these file:
    Battle of Kosovo 1448.rar

    then extract the contents into this folder: "...Medieval II Total War\mods\Tsardoms-2.2\custom"

    After launch the Tsardoms mod, you can find the battles (Hunyadi and Sultan Murad sides too) here: Load Game/Load custom battle
    Last edited by szikelkun; May 02, 2022 at 10:11 AM.
    (I'm hungarian. My english is not so good. Sorry.)

  2. #302
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    This is excellent, great work! I wonder if we can somehow include this as a custom battle.

    Historically the Turks were twice as many as Hunyadi's army right? But obviously that would not work from a gameplay point of view as the player would have no way of winning.

  3. #303

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    This is excellent, great work! I wonder if we can somehow include this as a custom battle.

    Historically the Turks were twice as many as Hunyadi's army right? But obviously that would not work from a gameplay point of view as the player would have no way of winning.

    Thank You Wallachian!

    Janos Hunyadi led the largest army of his life. An estimated 30,000 soldiers fought against 50,000 "Turks. So they weren't twice as much, but the superiority was significant. My compilation mimics this ratio arithmetically. Hunyadi wanted to unite with the Albanian allied army before the fight, but failed.
    Last edited by szikelkun; May 02, 2022 at 05:28 AM.
    (I'm hungarian. My english is not so good. Sorry.)

  4. #304
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Quote Originally Posted by szikelkun View Post
    Janos Hunyadi led the largest army of his life. An estimated 30,000 soldiers fought against 50,000 "Turks." So there was no double overpower, but significant. My compilation mimics this ratio arithmetically. Hunyadi wanted to unite with the Albanian allied army before the fight, but failed.
    That's an impressive figure! It's 50% more than at the battle of Grunwald / Tannenberg (1410), where 22k Teutonic Order soldiers fought 35k Polish-Lithuanian side.

  5. #305

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    I would suggest adding 1-2 units of Cebeli replacing Sipahi; if the Sipahi were present, so were the Cebelu/i, i don't remember the correct spelling

  6. #306

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis88 View Post
    I would suggest adding 1-2 units of Cebeli replacing Sipahi; if the Sipahi were present, so were the Cebelu/i, i don't remember the correct spelling
    Was this unit in the 2nd Battle of Kosovo? I did not find them in descriptions. But it is not impossible. I am not an expert on the Turkish army.
    (I'm hungarian. My english is not so good. Sorry.)

  7. #307

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    The Slovenian National Museum made a reconstruction of Ulrik Cillei (the last cillei) face after his skull:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    He is the leader of Cilli/Celje faction in Tsardoms 1448.

    I found the picture here:
    https://ujkor.hu/content/fejezetek-a...-kiraly-halala
    (I'm hungarian. My english is not so good. Sorry.)

  8. #308

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Quote Originally Posted by szikelkun View Post
    Was this unit in the 2nd Battle of Kosovo? I did not find them in descriptions. But it is not impossible. I am not an expert on the Turkish army.
    Yes they are represented as a different unit, but sources just usually call them "Sipahi". These represent the Timarli Sipahi who was the landlord with the Timar, and the Cebelu were his retainers that he took with him on his campaigns. So despite being part of the Sipahi force, they weren't Sipahi themselves. But when a source says 10.000 Sipahis fought it means the Timarli Sipahis with their retainers.

  9. #309

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    h
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails userpahlava1.gif   pah-sig.jpg  

  10. #310

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    you wrote hunyadi lost to the outnumbered turks!
    The turks werent outnumbered the christians were outnumbered by the turks.

  11. #311

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Quote Originally Posted by PavleSubich View Post
    you wrote hunyadi lost to the outnumbered turks!
    The turks werent outnumbered the christians were outnumbered by the turks.
    I do not know the religion of the Sultan's soldiers at the time. When I wrote Turks, I was thinking of the size of Murad's army, not the religious ratio.
    (I'm hungarian. My english is not so good. Sorry.)

  12. #312
    jurcek1987's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Thank you for the input. Yes it's probably better if this would be a custom/historical battle rather than campaign. It is possible to script battles in campaign, like we have Battle of Carravaggio at game start for Milan player but I see a few issues. The battle would be fought quite long way from Hungary's border and it would result in the death of either Murad or Hunyadi. Also that Hungarian army, as realistic as it is, wouldn't work that well in M2. Hunyadi has no spearmen for example. There were also other nobles involved like John Szekely and Emeric Bebek who both died in the battle.

  13. #313
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Quote Originally Posted by szikelkun View Post
    I do not know the religion of the Sultan's soldiers at the time. When I wrote Turks, I was thinking of the size of Murad's army, not the religious ratio.
    I think there is a bit of confusion here. In your initial text you mentioned that that 'Hunyadi army lost to the outnumbered Turks'. But it's the other way around, Hunyadi was outnumbered by the Turks.

    Quote Originally Posted by jurcek1987 View Post
    Thank you for the input. Yes it's probably better if this would be a custom/historical battle rather than campaign. It is possible to script battles in campaign, like we have Battle of Carravaggio at game start for Milan player but I see a few issues. The battle would be fought quite long way from Hungary's border and it would result in the death of either Murad or Hunyadi. Also that Hungarian army, as realistic as it is, wouldn't work that well in M2. Hunyadi has no spearmen for example. There were also other nobles involved like John Szekely and Emeric Bebek who both died in the battle.
    Yeap i fully agree here. It would be great if we could have a custom/historical battle for the Battle of Kosovo using the information provided above. Similarly, even the battle of Caravaggio could also be a custom battle so that players can enjoy it even if they don't want to play a full Milan campaign.

  14. #314

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    I think there is a bit of confusion here. In your initial text you mentioned that that 'Hunyadi army lost to the outnumbered Turks'. But it's the other way around, Hunyadi was outnumbered by the Turks.
    Maybe I didn’t put it well or misunderstood PavleSubich’s post. I meant He was thinking about the religious composition of those involved in the battle and perhaps more Christians took part in the battle than Muslims. Maybe.
    It is quite certain by arithmetic that the sultan's army was outnumbered, but there may contained many soldiers of the Christian religion. (As far as I know, there was also religious tolerance in the Turkish Empire.)
    (I'm hungarian. My english is not so good. Sorry.)

  15. #315

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Quote Originally Posted by szikelkun View Post
    Maybe I didn’t put it well or misunderstood PavleSubich’s post. I meant He was thinking about the religious composition of those involved in the battle and perhaps more Christians took part in the battle than Muslims. Maybe.
    It is quite certain by arithmetic that the sultan's army was outnumbered, but there may contained many soldiers of the Christian religion. (As far as I know, there was also religious tolerance in the Turkish Empire.)
    No the issue here is with your English, but it was obvious what you meant from what you wrote, it's just that PavleSubich decided to mention it. Outnumbered means less numbers not more. So because the Ottomans had a bigger army, the Hungarians were outnumbered, not the other way around. It's just a translation problem, you made yourself perfectly clear so don't worry too much about it

  16. #316

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis88 View Post
    No the issue here is with your English, but it was obvious what you meant from what you wrote, it's just that PavleSubich decided to mention it. Outnumbered means less numbers not more. So because the Ottomans had a bigger army, the Hungarians were outnumbered, not the other way around. It's just a translation problem, you made yourself perfectly clear so don't worry too much about it

    You are really right!
    I didn't know good the meaning of the word "outnumbered."
    The Sultan had a larger army, the Hungarians a smaller one.
    Sorry!
    (I'm hungarian. My english is not so good. Sorry.)

  17. #317
    jurcek1987's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Heh, no worries we all understood what you wanted to say. So what do you think about our 1448 descr_strat, characters and all.

    Btw here's a nice screenie of the legendary Janos Hunyadi
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    And the royal family tree, starting with Sigismund of Luxembourg
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Ladislaus the Posthumous will be an unplayable character scripted to die in 1457, true to history, and Matthias will then become king
    Last edited by jurcek1987; January 21, 2022 at 12:57 PM.

  18. #318

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    hunyadis army is lovable.
    I wonder how u arrange your units in late medieval times?I dont get what diferent roles do pavise spermena and spermen have or how do u use helebard units(frontline or protecting flanks)

  19. #319

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    Don't worry, I didn't forget the mod. Just I still searching, I collecting the datas. The 1440's and 50's were chaotic in Hungary the things was changeing fast. I want to be precise.
    According to my plans in next month I will share my resoults.
    (I'm hungarian. My english is not so good. Sorry.)

  20. #320

    Default Re: Faction - Kingdom of Hungary

    How many noble houses are needed for the faction in 1448 campaign?
    (I'm hungarian. My english is not so good. Sorry.)

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