I'll try not to rant...

[mocker]

...But it's hard not to.
I am sure the developers of DLV have put a lot of effort in the game, but I have to say these things.

There's a lot of flaws and bugs in the mod, to the point that version "5.2" deserves to be called beta.


Since I'm not going to point out all of the various bugs I encountered, since I don't remember the details, but I will give you some advice.
I recommend that you listen to it:

-Why Greenland? Greenland was a struggling outpost of Norway that eventually bit the dust, yet it seems to grow into a flourishing metropolis compared to, say, Bergen. Iceland was much more important for Norway than Greenland.

-The next-door Americas: As Norway, I was able to colonise the Americas before the 13th century.
In 1209, the rest of Europe followed. What the hell?

-Overpotent unit upkeep system: Somehow, my peasant unit having a picnic just outside the city walls costs me an entire town budget each year. The fact that there are two turns per year doesn't exactly help.
This leads to me going bankrupt within the first four turns or so.

-The civil war system is FUBAR: The generals who become rebels seem to be random 50%, which means that my most loyal obedient servants (including the chivalrious superloyal married-the-kings-daughter-general AND the crown prince) suddenly decide they should behave like antisocial chavs within a few turns; If they're rebels, and within my own towns, why can't I just execute them for treason? Why can't my loyal generals have them hanged? I guess it is against the medieval Geneva convention; Rebel generals have declared me their own foe and vowed to kill me, yet they're still on my payroll; rebel generals are being killed by their own rebel riots when the settlement revolts; when my king dies, the civil war traits are still there, even if the throne is taken by a 'disloyal/rebel' family member.

-Region errors: Norway starts with Greenland, yet not Bergen, which was an important trading center in Norway; Bergen was a hanseatic bureau city, yet it has no sea trade or even a port; Plenty of amber resources in Norway (Norway doesn't even have amber, except for the amber that is carried by the ocean from Denmark); Greenland has plentiful of forests, when it historically scarcely had trees at all; The sea trade route from Kalmar collides with Gotland, and the cargo ships disappear visually.

-Jewish commerce: Jews were not traditionally merchants, they were bankers. I shouldn't need to convert 20% of my population and create immense religious unrest in order to keep my commerce runnning.

-Graphical flaws everywhere


...

I hope this helps, and if it doesn't, I got rid of some steam anyway.
DLV needs an overhaul.

Good luck with DLV!

-Mocker

[Vangar]

-Why Greenland? Greenland was a struggling outpost of Norway that eventually bit the dust, yet it seems to grow into a flourishing metropolis compared to, say, Bergen. Iceland was much more important for Norway than Greenland.

"From AD 984 it (Greenland) was colonized by Norse settlers who lived in two settlements on the west coast on the fjords near the very southwestern tip of the island." (wiki)

-The next-door Americas: As Norway, I was able to colonise the Americas before the 13th century.
In 1209, the rest of Europe followed. What the hell?

I agree with that. I don't like the fact that the new world can be conquered right away which also makes numerous exploits possible. To "balance" it a bit, the Aztecs in DLV are WAY to powerful to avoid a too early colonization. But I don't like this feature, as well as the "colonization" event in 1209 (there are two other events like this)

-Overpotent unit upkeep system: Somehow, my peasant unit having a picnic just outside the city walls costs me an entire town budget each year. The fact that there are two turns per year doesn't exactly help.
This leads to me going bankrupt within the first four turns or so.

I like the upkeep system. Placing armies outside of settlements mean that they're foraging. To stay at full strength they take food and resources from smaller villages. Those communities always had to share their supplies with royal armies in medieval times. This also means that these communities can't pay their full amount of resources to the crown which explains the higher costs. You have to garrison your troops either inside a settlement or a fortification.

-The civil war system is FUBAR: The generals who become rebels seem to be random 50%, which means that my most loyal obedient servants (including the chivalrious superloyal married-the-kings-daughter-general AND the crown prince) suddenly decide they should behave like antisocial chavs within a few turns; If they're rebels, and within my own towns, why can't I just execute them for treason? Why can't my loyal generals have them hanged? I guess it is against the medieval Geneva convention; Rebel generals have declared me their own foe and vowed to kill me, yet they're still on my payroll; rebel generals are being killed by their own rebel riots when the settlement revolts; when my king dies, the civil war traits are still there, even if the throne is taken by a 'disloyal/rebel' family member.

You DID read the instructions, did you? Your King has to be crowned. That means if your faction leader dies and his heir is somewhere at the end of the world he has to return to the capital to become crowned and recognised as the new king. If he claims to be the leader and doesn't inherit the crown, the generals will not recognise them as their king and rebel.

I admit, however, that some effects of the civil war system are a bit unbalanced or unfair. Generals who openly rebel against the crown shouldn't recieve their pay checks any more and it's also nonsense that I can't do anything about rebelling generals.

But it is actually possible to inprison these traitors. Once your king gets crowned properly there is a chance that the civil war will end and the king orders the former traitors to return to the capital. There, they'll be "thrown into the dungeon" and will be released some years later. They won't be happy, but regain loyality over the next years. I like the idea, but there's also a bit of nonsense: while thrown into the dungeon, characters cann still manage the city for example

-Region errors: (...) Greenland has plentiful of forests, when it historically scarcely had trees at all; The sea trade route from Kalmar collides with Gotland, and the cargo ships disappear visually.

"Data obtained from ice cores indicate that between AD 800 and 1300 the regions around the fjords of the southern part of the island experienced a relatively mild climate similar to today. Trees and herbaceous plants grew in the south of the island and the prevailing climate initially permitted farming of domestic livestock species as farmed in Norway." (wiki)

The trade route is just a minor cosmetic bug. Besides, the ships don't vanish - they'll spin around in an abnormous speed and zoooom around Gotland

-Jewish commerce: Jews were not traditionally merchants, they were bankers. I shouldn't need to convert 20% of my population and create immense religious unrest in order to keep my commerce runnning.

Don't know about that...

-Graphical flaws everywhere

Except the trading route around Gotland I didn't notice a single graphical flaw. Maybe you should check your graphics setting?

DLV needs an overhaul.

Sure, that's why it's still work in progress They're still working on many features, not everything works well and nothing's perfect, but in my opinion it's the best MTW2 mod out there at this time, and it gets better with every update

[Chipp]

You DID read the instructions, did you? Your King has to be crowned. That means if your faction leader dies and his heir is somewhere at the end of the world he has to return to the capital to become crowned and recognised as the new king. If he claims to be the leader and doesn't inherit the crown, the generals will not recognise them as their king and rebel.

I have a question about this. I am playing Flanders and I own Paris, Arhus, and Bruges. Will my King have to wear 3 crowns then? I'm pretty sure he already has the Crown of Flanders, and the Danish one. And they rebelled anyways. The annoying thing is that there is no way of knowing which general is going to betray you. Loyalty counts for nothing.

[Xtiaan72]

That's medieval politics for ya.....I do know one thing....You can't trust those blokes from Flanders......You gotta stab them in the back first...That's what I say

[Aszrayel]

I have a question about this. I am playing Flanders and I own Paris, Arhus, and Bruges. Will my King have to wear 3 crowns then? I'm pretty sure he already has the Crown of Flanders, and the Danish one. And they rebelled anyways. The annoying thing is that there is no way of knowing which general is going to betray you. Loyalty counts for nothing.

I believe you only need your own faction's crown. The others are just an added bonus. Yes sometimes even when you do get the new leader crowned they will still rebel as they might not see him fit to be king.

[King Yngvar]

Bergen should be replaced maybe with Stavanger...

Bergen was a much more important city than Stavanger. Anyway I think the Scandinavian factions need some redoing. Removing Greenland from Norwegian control, adding Stavanger in addition to still keeping Bergen while also changing the faction leader's name to Sverre or Sverrir Sigurdsson, his son being named Håkon.
What could be done with Denmark is to add a province on Sjælland or Odense, København or Roskilde perhaps.

Notice that Norway starts with an army headed towards Bergen (I can't see a reason as to why Bergen is rebel-infested in the first place, but I've already made that point),

Norway was in a civil war, the two factions were Sverre Sigurdsson on one side and Magnus Erlingsson on the other.

[hekk]

Bergen was a much more important city than Stavanger.

Yeah, though Stavanger didn't actually exist by that time (even though there was much trade activity around Jæren), so I wouldn't recommend adding it.

I think I was the one who suggested renaming Bergen to Stavanger, because Bergen on the DLV map is exactly where Stavanger is, geographically. So sorry about that.

Norway was in a civil war, the two factions were Sverre Sigurdsson on one side and Magnus Erlingsson on the other.

Yeah, Norway was split up in two factions, with the original king Magnus Erlingsson and the Heklungs controlling Bergen and South Norway and Sverre Sigurdsson and the Birkebeiners having a limited control of Nidaros and the North.

In my opinion, the main problem for this faction is that you only get to controll a tiny bit of Southern Norway, maybe even about a 1/5 of Norway. I think it would truly be a blessing for this faction if the map was expanded further North...

[gubbs]

Even with the punitive financial measures I usually have 100k in the bank by 1200.

You just need to focus on building grain exhanges, roads, markets, fairs, highways ..

You can fire out enough merchants to make you seriously rich without even bothering with jews.

You have some valid gripes re: greenland, Americas and poor faction planning at start of game. But if thats the case - do what I am doing - improve it, submit it for everyone else.

1. Convert castles to cities, especially ones with ports. You only need like 1 castle, as they are so expensive to upgrade and a large one can produce enough troops for your entire empire with judicious use of forts. Mercenaries are nearly always better anyway and militia troops in the mid-late game are excellent cheap units and free to maintain with garrisons.

2. Set taxation to Very High, everywhere until at least 1250 ish when large cities start appearing. It helps to slow down growth, keep squalor low and means smaller garrisons, less outlay etc etc etc.

3. Get trade rights with everyone ASAP. If they have a nice fat trade route, declare war, steal it, offer peace.


3 easy steps to financial slap down.

[repman]

@mocker
thanks for the hints
Junpei has given my answers
Remember Erik der Rote in Vinland ?
Who knows all the unknown explorers who died in vain in the foreign lands ?
Greenland was easier to include than iceland, and i have been on holiday hiking in igaliko ...lol
Bergen should be replaced maybe with Stavanger...

Which graphical errors ?

repman

[Rex Inanimatus]

@ mocker your input is ok though please understand that his whole mod is not made by volunteers who try to make the best of this game, so make it more suggestion like instead of flaming those who try to give a better gaming experience to you

[Zonks38]

I agree with some of the above, I was enjoying this MOD very much until 5.2 came and I found I needed jews to be able to trade, this was a joke, but I continued playing without merchants and burned down the Jewish temples in captured cities.
The feature that drove me from this Mod was the rebeling nobles, its a good idea, reminds me of the original MTW, but for some reason every king I had would cop this trait, in the end it to became a joke, so I went back to EB 1.0
I stop in now and then to see if a new patch has come out that fixes these issues, though after reading the responses to the original poster I won't hold my breath.

[Valantine]

The only thing i agree with you on is the whole Jewish thing, id rather not have that as part of my game as its a pretty BIG stereotype.

However plus Rep to Junpei for such a great response!

I like the idea of rebelling nobles, i just wish they didnt draw a pay check whilst they are rebelling!

[Vangar]

What's the thing about the jews? I completed two campaigns in DLV completely and I never had to convert part of the population in order to trade.

EDIT: Besides, that's really a stupid stereotype if it's meant the way I think it is...

[repman]

@jews
I know it's a minefield....
I wanted to add a new religion relevant for the whole world. Not just the shia or sunnites...
I but there is no jewish faction in this time frame ...Khazars were already on the decline...
I know jews were more relevant in the banking (loans) sector. They were disliked in the christian world and rather accepted in the islamic world.
so as a compromise i put the jewish up as a parameter for merchants.
You only need one city witha jewish temple to create merchants

In 5.3 the jewish temple will get boni for trading and public health (jewish doctors...). Maybe i will set the law\happiness malus lower in islamic factions.
Maybe hospitals should be buildable for all factions but require an islamic or jewish level of 20%

repman

[mocker]

Thanks for all the great answers, but some not so great:
That Erik the Red decides to stretch his bony legs 206 years after his death(!) is one of them.

As I said, I tried not to get carried away, but it's really against my nature not to do so. Apologies to those whom it may concern.

I understand the upkeep system is a good idea in principle, but it's overpotent. It should be a drain on economy, yes, but not to the point where it causes bankruptcy within a few turns.

Notice that Norway starts with an army headed towards Bergen (I can't see a reason as to why Bergen is rebel-infested in the first place, but I've already made that point), which drains the starting economy considerably. Also notice that the army is unable to take Bergen without a prolonged siege, and even then it's extremely hard to take the town.

Regarding the jews:
I could live with a synagogue requirement, but it converts my population. Giving the jews a place of worship is ok, but not when they start converting people (which I'm pretty wasn't exactly a Jewish priority).
In Kalmar, 35% of the population were Jews, and I had to keep a huge garrison there as well as tax the city mildly in order to avoid revolts.

And two more minor thing: Norway starts with zero town centers. This might not sound like much, but it meant that I couldn't get diplomats until 1207. It was a tad annoying not having any emissaries; and haakon haakonson reigned from 1217 to 1263.

Here are a few graphical flaws I remember:

-Every Norwegian kite shield texture was arranged was tilted upwards, so that the lower part of the shield was black and the upper part was cropped.
-Native Americans had the peculiar habit of turning invisible now and then
-Every Norwegian banner seem to be missing in the campaign map, and were represented by either the rebel icon or the Flemish banner.

Once again, thanks for the answers.

[Harry Lime]

1. The point is that Vikings founded a Nordic settlement in Greenland, not that Erik the Red is still living there.

2. Focus on economic buildings first to avoid bankruptcy & expand aggressively.

3. Combine armies?

4. The jews? As repman said it's a minefield I'm not going there.

5. DLV is hard, very hard. We wouldn't have it any other way..

6. As a mod developer yourself, you should know, it's not good form to go onto another mod's forum & slag it off. Constructive criticism is good but what you posted originally was as you said 'a rant' & helpful to no one, except perhaps your blood pressure.

EDIT: Haven't noticed that about the shields but I'll look into it.
The SD files need doing for the Norwegians. I'm currently working on that.

[Ludicus]

I could live with a synagogue requirement, but it converts my population. Giving the jews a place of worship is ok, but not when they start converting people (which I'm pretty wasn't exactly a Jewish priority).

Good point.

Jewish commerce: Jews were not traditionally merchants, they were bankers

Traditionally, Jews were merchants and moneylanders.

[Laardilla]

I think it's very fair that there's a big drain on your economy whenever your armies are campaigning. Historically, most medieval wars left the kings who launched them teetering on the edge of bankruptcy (if not over it). The kings usually solved these problems by
A. Taking loans
B. squeezing their nobility or middle classes for more money
C. Selling lands, titles, or giving power to the nobility in return for more money
D. or in the cases of some, the English kings for example, trying to get a cut into church lands.
I'm sure it would be extremely difficult to implement and even more so to balance, but it might be nice if some sort of options were in place to get a quick economic boost.

[repman]

You can burn your church...you will get some money..

repman

[Laardilla]

You can burn your church...you will get some money..

repman

lol

Alright, fair enough