enlightenment through knowledge ~possible?

[Amorphos]

enlightenment through knowledge ~possible?

i have been wondering lately if it is entirely possible to gain enlightenment purely by knowing [gnosis]. to truly understand the higher aspects of reality means that you would need to have advanced to the respective level. meditation is a useful tool as is learning buddha dharma etc, but in the end it comes down to gaining an understanding of that or whatever you think enlightenment would be.

i always like to see people advancing irrespective of what path they take, to be bright is to be illuminated, to be ready to throw everything you believe in away is the first step to enlightenment. conversely it is annoying when one sees people ignoring truths that have been offered up.

imho it doesn’t matter if you are atheist, agnostic or religious, but to be willing to see truth and not standing for dogma is fundamental.

so enlightenment through gnosis anyone?

[Sleeper]

The reverse is certainly possible.

[Amorphos]

yeah plankton and other single celled creatures are all most enlightened.

[Sleeper]

Buddha was enlightened in the absence of most knowledge.
Definition of knowledge?
Knowing "what"?:hmmm:

[Amorphos]

ah i see. yeah like he got there by not knowing anything? you have to reach a certain state of mind to reach enlightenment i.e. you have to go through the process of thinking, then you can gain an understanding of it.

knowing what? thats just the point, we know only in a metaphoric sence, so there is a similar thing going on in many perceptions.

[Ummon]

I don't know.

An excellent question nonetheless.

[Amorphos]

ummon

I don’t know.

i.e. you are not enlightened thus as yet you don’t know. perhaps many of us already ‘know’ enough, as we are still in our human forms we cannot ‘be it’.

true though, perhaps we can only ever get so far either via gnosis or through enlightened ignorance/innocence ~buddhism.


you are king of the one liners these days eh

[Ummon]

There is no end to that path I suspect. There are steps, as with ladders, and one threshold humans are supposed to reach when they know the most of what a human can know.

But knowledge alone is somehow pointless. Love is indeed, as Blau&Gruen recently was saying, the key.

knowing what? thats just the point, we know only in a metaphoric sence, so there is a similar thing going on in many perceptions.

The oneness in diversity.

[Amorphos]

ummon

But knowledge alone is somehow pointless. Love is indeed, as Blau&Gruen recently was saying, the key.

goes hand-in-hand lols

you cannot gain a true understanding of the higher reality without bumping into love...

whatever that word means...

of course love itself in not present in nirvana, it tends to be duality incarnate. even some kind of pure love would still not be present as to feel it you would have to be separating things in a sense.

[Ummon]

I was never certain that nirvana is enlightenment. Why would an enlightened being come back to this world, if there is no more love left to it?

[Amorphos]

I was never certain that nirvana is enlightenment. Why would an enlightened being come back to this world, if there is no more love left to it?

a boddhisattva would come back to help others, oh i see you meant why would they come back if there is no love within the state of nirvana?

i would think that; unexpressed it is not love [as in nirvana], expressed it is love. same ‘it’ though.

[Sleeper]

I mean "what" knowledge. I don't think scientific knowledge is a path to enlightenment, though it is clearly the path to understanding the nature of the physical universe. Knowledge of abstractions or associated systems (philosophy) seems like something that is has no absolutes, ends, or completeness possible. Knowledge of incomprehensibility is the most commonly perceived path to nirvana (zen).

What "knowledge" might lead to enlightenment must first be defined before your question can be answered.

[Ummagumma]

What "knowledge" might lead to enlightenment must first be defined before your question can be answered.

Paradoxically, once you know what you need to know, you have probably reached the destination anyway. The removal of curiosity - essentially doubt - is possibly one of the things that has to be overcome. I always see 'nirvana' as a state of acceptance more than anything. Of course, I'm probably way off, but that is my thoughts for what they are worth....

[Amorphos]

sleeper

hmm i see, poignant question! science and philosophy combined may lead to enlightenment as i see it. science can take us to its own limits and a basic understanding of infinity, which in turn takes us to a greater perception of what some call nirvana. surely though we have to see nirvana as more than just a state ~ that it is a reality, not a place as such but something.

the gnosis...
philosophy as i see it, has an end in its universal perception of what that reality is and how it would fit the greater all-inclusive whole.

i find that for example buddhism doesn’t do that, it just states that there is a greater reality and everything else is an illusion or is comparatively an illusion.

however if the pure state/reality is absolute then it allows for nothing bar it. thence it follows that it belongs to a greater universal understanding. that is if it is absolute; for it to be so it would have to be defined or definable which it is not i suppose.

[Sleeper]

I have meditated for years and it wasn't until I Meditated that I realized I had not been meditating for years, only moments.

[Sleeper]

Science can never take us past infinity, where enlightenment hides in the abyss.

[Ummon]

Well, I would put it thus: science can help gnosis and gnosis can help science.

[Amorphos]

science can help gnosis and gnosis can help science

perhaps we could go so far as to say science has to have an element of belief in it. lols i.e. otherwise everything is subjective, and the basis for any knowledge is metaphoric to that which it represents.

[Sleeper]

Science and belief, be careful, the logic police might go fundamentalist on you.

[Ummon]

Actually, no. Many esoterical teachings are excellent to inspire scientific research.

Many scientific discoveries have profound spiritual implications.