Is there free will in heaven?

[Time Commander Bob]

Most Christians believe that God gave us free will as if God did not, he would be evil (as he sends people to hell when it is not their fault).

Now, in heaven, do the people (or souls of people) have free will? If they do then surely they could commit bad acts and sin. If they don't then what is the point of living a life of free will to live as a robot? If there is no free will in heaven, why has the benevolent God not stripped away our evil thoughts now along with our free will?

I have previously heard the explanation that you keep your free will but your evil thoughts are gone. However, there are two problems with this. Firstly, surely if you cannot think of evil, your free will has been limited. Secondly why would a all-powerful benevolent God not do this in the first place so that there would be no need for the afterlife? (ie, people created with free will and not harbouring evil thoughts).

[Ummon]

If we conceive evil as the act of separating oneself from God, this means that in paradise this act is still conceivable, yet never performed.

[Time Commander Bob]

If we conceive evil as the act of separating oneself from God, this means that in paradise this act is still conceivable, yet never performed.

But is it possible to perform the act in heaven?

[Ummon]

But is it possible to perform the act in heaven?

I am not an expert on the exact characteristics of heaven. In a sense though, this is an excellent question.

We are discussing the sex of angels, one might say. Most of this is really beyond human grasp (if meaningful). Therefore, here we come to the point of faith.

Personally, I think it is possible, that once one goes to heaven, he becomes freer, and not less free. For this to work though, we must assume action without time, for example, and many other paradoxical things.

But think about it. Through time one person has been depurated of his desire to sin. Is that person unfree? To undergo such change, one must do it willingly. That choice is yours, and it remains yours.

More than freedom, this perhaps has to do with meaning?

[Sleeper]

Personally, I think it is possible, that once one goes to heaven, he becomes freer, and not less free. For this to work though, we must assume action without time, for example, and many other paradoxical things.

But think about it. Through time one person has been depurated of his desire to sin. Is that person unfree? To undergo such change, one must do it willingly. That choice is yours, and it remains yours.

Sin is not the result of evil as it is commonly perceived. Sin is the result of the fall of Man, not by knowledge from the tree even, but for disobeying God.

Heaven is Eden with the constant presence of god thrown in. Eden was, by most accounts, a place where fulfilling physical desire was the primary pastime, along with labeling things.

In other words, sins of desire are not sins in Heaven.

Jesus is the guy who convinced God or rather, himself, that man deserves a return to Eden after death in exchange for faith in life.

[Ummon]

Sin is not the result of evil as it is commonly perceived. Sin is the result of the fall of Man, not by knowledge from the tree even, but for disobeying God.

Heaven is Eden with the constant presence of god thrown in. Eden was, by most accounts, a place where fulfilling physical desire was the primary pastime, along with labeling things.

In other words, sins of desire are not sins in Heaven.

Jesus is the guy who convinced God or rather, himself, that man deserves a return to Eden after death in exchange for faith in life.

My choice of words was incorrect. I must apologize though, that my mind was completely on another thread.

Two faults at the price of one.

Though I must say that I am not exactly convinced by this (rather orthodox) account.

[Sleeper]

Yes. Lucifer and the fallen are a common proof for the existence of free will in Heaven. Some prophets are already in Heaven as they were raised without death, thus do not have to wait for the Rapture and are already deep in conversation with god: Enoch comes to mind.

[Time Commander Bob]

Yes. Lucifer and the fallen are a common proof for the existence of free will in Heaven. Some prophets are already in Heaven as they were raised without death, thus do not have to wait for the Rapture and are already deep in conversation with god: Enoch comes to mind.

Therefore, potentially someone (or someone's soul) could get kicked out of heaven. Thus, it isn't necessarily "eternal paradise". What sort of infraction would get someone kicked out?

There are only angels in Heaven. Everyone else is in Hell.

What do you mean by "angel"? Are people in heaven essentially "angels" or not?

[Sleeper]

Therefore, potentially someone (or someone's soul) could get kicked out of heaven. Thus, it isn't necessarily "eternal paradise". What sort of infraction would get someone kicked out?

They can't be kicked out, because everyone wants everyone else and there is enough of everything. However, as far as say, murder goes, Scripture and the Church Fathers have unfortunately, not delved into such possibilities.

I would say they need not be looked into because, somehow, no one wants to be mean to hurtful in Heaven.
Think of a massive buffet surrounding a never ending ecstatic orgy produced by God's presence. Think Islamic Paradise.

What do you mean by "angel"? Are people in heaven essentially "angels" or not?

I was speaking poetically.

[Turbo]

1 Cor 15:50*51,44 Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God a. we shall all be changed...we will have a spiritual body

I mention this as free will such as we know it will not exist as we will not exist in the present form.

Lucifer and the fallen were angels not men.

[Sleeper]

There are only angels in Heaven. Everyone else is in Hell.

[The Good]

What do you mean by "angel"? Are people in heaven essentially "angels" or not?

No, the believers are superior to the Heavenly angels, trust me, when you arrive in Heaven, if you arrive in Heaven, you will not be made an angel.

[Justinian]

First of all, just as an aside, the notion of there being no sex in heaven must be false. Angels, who are from heaven, are in the Bible quoted as going down to earth and ****ing some human girls (heavenly behavior to be sure). Just felt like pointing it out.

Secondly, the answer in this topic will never be answered, because even if heaven existed ... no one is coming back to tell you about it.

[Sleeper]

First of all, just as an aside, the notion of there being no sex in heaven must be false. Angels, who are from heaven, are in the Bible quoted as going down to earth and ****ing some human girls (heavenly behavior to be sure). Just felt like pointing it out.

You should read my posts in this thread.

[The Good]

First of all, just as an aside, the notion of there being no sex in heaven must be false. Angels, who are from heaven, are in the Bible quoted as going down to earth and ****ing some human girls (heavenly behavior to be sure). Just felt like pointing it out.

Secondly, the answer in this topic will never be answered, because even if heaven existed ... no one is coming back to tell you about it.

Well, I've never read a passage like that before, about angels having intercourse with Humans. Would you mind telling me what book in the Bible that could be found, and the chapters/verses?

And yes, someone did come back from Heaven. His name is Jesus Christ, and He is the Messiah. Before He was resurrected from the dead, He had just come from Heaven. He even departed up into Heaven, and there were several witnesses with Him at the time. But I suppose that is not good enough for you....

[Justinian]

LJ, Genesis Chapter 6.

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...206&version=9;

[The Good]

Are you refering to the "Sons" of God? Are you sure that the passage is refering to angels and not just men?

If I've missed something, I'd appreciate some clarity.

Grazie.

[Justinian]

The way it is phrased, it is rather odd to assume it means anything but angels -- it specifically refers to Sons of God, daughters of men, thus creating a difference (beyond gender) between the two.

Besides, why would the Bible mention normal human couplings...?

Look up Nephilim.

[The Good]

Well, according to Wikipedia, the Nephilim are said to have been giants, tall Humans, you know. I don't think that necessarily means that they were angels.

Here is the link to the article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

[Fenix_120]

actually the only way that could have happened were if those were demons...

When God threw Satan and his demons out of heaven I have always believed that not all of the demons followed Satan, as he was a loser and got them exiled, but instead took physical bodies and went to earth and those are the "Sons of God" that are mentioned.

This is a theory on my part.


I believe that the "Nephilim" were part demon part man, and I think every single one of them had six toes on each foot...

I don't remember I'm going to have to go back and read some more.