Question Re: upgrading armor on your troops

[Xix]

I've owned the game for a couple of weeks now and last night I found I didn't quite understand how the armor upgrade system works.

If I upgrade to the highest level armorer will that armorer still upgrade my troops that can't use full plate?

How many levels of armor can I upgrade? Can I take a peasant and deck him out in advanced plate, or can you only upgrade a troop one level.

Generals - My general has the crappy mailed knights even though I have access to better knights. Can I upgrade my generals knights to ... say Templar Knights?

Also, when I loose troops from my general's bodyguard are they automatically replenshied? (It just seems to naturally happen, haven't really thought about it until now)

Thank you to anyone who can help me understand.

[Lost Crusader]

If I upgrade to the highest level armorer will that armorer still upgrade my troops that can't use full plate?

No. each unit has a max armor level, and it can't be upgraded when it reaches it. If a unit is not fully upgraded, its next upgrade level will be shown in the description.
For example, the Spear militia can be upgraded 3 times, receiving heavy mail at the end. Even if you train them in the highest level of armorer, they'll never be able to upgrade with anything better.

How many levels of armor can I upgrade? Can I take a peasant and deck him out in advanced plate, or can you only upgrade a troop one level.

Depends on a unit. Some cannot be upgraded at all, some can have up to 3 upgrades. IIRC, the peasants can be upgraded once, with padded armor.

Generals - My general has the crappy mailed knights even though I have access to better knights. Can I upgrade my generals knights to ... say Templar Knights?

Also, when I loose troops from my general's bodyguard are they automatically replenshied? (It just seems to naturally happen, haven't really thought about it until now)

You can't upgrade your Generals' bodyguard to Templar knights. You can only upgrade them with better armor (one upgrade, giving them full plate).

And yes, bodyguards automatically replenish themselves, reaching a full strength after a turn or two.

Hope this helps

EDIT: don't let the unit stats for upgraded armor mislead you. Even if it shows only 1 point more for each upgrade, the true stats are actually higher
padded armor gives additional 4 points,
light mail gives 5,
heavy mail 7,
partial plate 8,
full plate 9,
adv. plate 10-11.

Of course, those points are added to the base defense value, not cumulatively.

[TheOnion]

This is the best explanation I have read of how armor upgrades work. This would be nice to sticky as the game manual doesn't explain it at all.

[NobleNick]

EDIT: don't let the unit stats for upgraded armor mislead you. Even if it shows only 1 point more for each upgrade, the true stats are actually higher
padded armor gives additional 4 points,
light mail gives 5,
heavy mail 7,
partial plate 8,
full plate 9,
adv. plate 10-11.

Of course, those points are added to the base defense value, not cumulatively.

Really? I don't doubt you, but how do you know this? This is really good info.

@Xix --> Look around for the link in this forum to brandybarrel's FAUST. It shows all the unit stats for every unit in every faction, including which armor upgrades apply to which units.

EDIT: Here is the link to the download: brandybarrels_M2TW_FAUST

[Lost Crusader]

Really? I don't doubt you, but how do you know this? This is really good info.

I came to these figures mostly by looking at units stats. For example, an unit that originaly wears padded armor has armor value 4. But upgrading an unarmored unit (like peasants) to padded armor gives only 1 point, according to the unit description stats (which is wrong).

So I looked at every unit that originally wears each type of armor, and that's how I found those figures. There are a few exceptions, but it's accurate for 99% of the European units.

That makes the armor upgrade very important, especially early in the game. For example, if you fully upgrade the Spear militia with heavy mail, it will transform them from relatively crappy unit (defense 7) into a rather strong unit with defense 14.

[Xix]

Thank you everyone very much for your replies.

But my original question is still unclear to me: A full plate armorer will be able to upgrade a lesser unit to mail still, right?

To me it is logical that it would be so, but just because something is logical doesn't make it so in game.

[Tony83]

Thank you everyone very much for your replies.

But my original question is still unclear to me: A full plate armorer will be able to upgrade a lesser unit to mail still, right?

To me it is logical that it would be so, but just because something is logical doesn't make it so in game.

To answer your original question, yes!

An "Armour Factory", which can produce the top level "Advanced Plate" armour, will upgrade any unit to whatever the maximum level of armour is possible for it.

[mlc82]

I came to these figures mostly by looking at units stats. For example, an unit that originaly wears padded armor has armor value 4. But upgrading an unarmored unit (like peasants) to padded armor gives only 1 point, according to the unit description stats (which is wrong).

So I looked at every unit that originally wears each type of armor, and that's how I found those figures. There are a few exceptions, but it's accurate for 99% of the European units.

That makes the armor upgrade very important, especially early in the game. For example, if you fully upgrade the Spear militia with heavy mail, it will transform them from relatively crappy unit (defense 7) into a rather strong unit with defense 14.

This doesn't seem to be working this way... A +3 armor upgrade (say spear milita upgraded into Heavy Mail) is just getting 3 extra points in their total defensive tally, and only from armor. I'm playing Deus lo Vult so the stats might be different, but they start with a defensive score of 11, the +3 armor upgrade that should be a rating of 6 is then a 3, and only 3 points are added to the stated defensive bonus.

Do you mean that it actually IS upgrading it to an armor value of 6 and allowing them to defend as such but is only showing +3 mistakenly? If so, how are you sure? I'm really confused, working on a mod that really needs to address this but I'm lost on this as well. It appears that my heavy chain armored spearmen still have a lower armor rating than a padded armor italian militiaman, and I can't find anything to show the opposite...

[Sacc]

Please let me know if I'm doing this right or wasting money.

If I just finish building an armor building. I then retrain all the units that allow me to retrain them. I figure this is upgrading their armor. Same goes for moving a healthy unit to a city with better training/armor. Sometime I move armies around solely to upgrade them.

Am I wasting money, because some units can only be upgraded so high? Or does the computer automatically not allow me to upgrade them if they're at their limit?

[NobleNick]

Am I wasting money, because some units can only be upgraded so high? Or does the computer automatically not allow me to upgrade them if they're at their limit?

You are doing the right thing.

You will always get something for your money. The game only asks for money if there is something (men/upgrade) which you do not have.

A cheaper way is to train a new unit in a city with the armor upgrade buildings present. That way you get the armor for free (well, almost: you paid for the building).

[Sacc]

A cheaper way is to train a new unit in a city with the armor upgrade buildings present. That way you get the armor for free (well, almost: you paid for the building).

Thanks, I would like to hear others opinions on this. Upgrading armor is more expensive then it should be imo. Usually around 100 or so. But I will always upgrade an experienced unit. No?

I guess morally, I've always had problems sending my troops out under prepared. I know it's a game and blah, blah but still.

[redhawk13]

You are doing the right thing.

You will always get something for your money. The game only asks for money if there is something (men/upgrade) which you do not have.

A cheaper way is to train a new unit in a city with the armor upgrade buildings present. That way you get the armor for free (well, almost: you paid for the building).

I have noticed that when I get guilds such as woodsman's and swordsmith's that give global experience bonuses, sometimes I pay to upgrade a unit and nothing happens. For example, I'll train a retinue longbowman or an english knight and be given the option to upgrade, which I do. But on the next turn nothing has been upgraded and I have to option to pay for the upgrade again.

Has this happened to anyone else, and if so is there a solution? BTW I am using vanilla 1.2

[Monsieur Alphonse]

I have noticed that when I get guilds such as woodsman's and swordsmith's that give global experience bonuses, sometimes I pay to upgrade a unit and nothing happens. For example, I'll train a retinue longbowman or an english knight and be given the option to upgrade, which I do. But on the next turn nothing has been upgraded and I have to option to pay for the upgrade again.

Has this happened to anyone else, and if so is there a solution? BTW I am using vanilla 1.2

This is a known bug. If you retrain them and then save before end of turn the XP upgrade is lost. It is better to save then retrain them and then hit end turn.

[redhawk13]

Thanks much Monsieur Alphonse; your fix worked perfectly. It was getting damn frustrating wasting all that money!

[iksterminator]

Actually what are the units you can upgrade to advanced armor? I played with most factions, but never had a chance to use it Is armor factory useless?

[Tony83]

So far, I've only come across Generals' bodyguards and high tier units such as French Gendarmes, but I'm sure each faction would have one or two units that would benefit from an Armour Factory.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Only a couple units can get advanced plate:
Lancers, Gendarmes, Gothic knights, Men at arms (mounted and dismounted), Broken lances (mounted and dismounted) and Familglia Ducale. Late bodyguards (northern European) can get it but they aren't available in the campaign.

This means that the armour factory is useless for most factions.

[Sokar Rostau]

I just noticed something a bit strange. I can retrain Peasant Archers in Cities that can't train them. I am assuming this is an armour upgrade, but it still seems a little unusual.

[Captain Spanky]

redhawk13: Yeah I've noticed this too, its a bug for vanilla I believe. Just keep retraining and it should work eventually.

Sokar Rostau: When this happens it is either for armour upgrades or weapon upgrade, if the settlement has a swordsmiths guild in it. In this case that is the only thing that will change, the number of men in a unit will not replenish.

[Bob The Fearless]

I play on MTW Kingdoms Retrofit and suffer from a upgrade and replenishment bug.

Basically (iirc) if you save the game between turns it won't let you or limits what can upgrade that turn.

I used to save before each "Turn End" but now just do periodic saves when armour upgrades etc aren't required and all works fine for me.

Others may be able to be a little more specific on this for us.