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  1. #1

    Default Jehovah's Witnesses

    I have a friend who happens to be a Jehovah's Witness and he has attempted on numerous occaisions to convert ("save") me from my current beliefs (Armenian Orthodox) and he even gave me a handbook on Jehovah's Witness beliefs in Eastern Armenian.

    The other day we were debating on some religious points and I was curious about some Jehovah's Witness beliefs which had to do with Heaven and Hell. He claimed that Jehovah's Witnesses didn't believe in Hell.

    So, if there is no Hell, and there is only Heaven, what is the point of anything if you're going to go to Heaven no matter what and receive no punishment [if you were bad]?
    That was the question I poised to him, and he gave me this response:

    Well, if you aren't a Jehovah's Witness, then you won't go to Heaven, and you'll just die... That's it, no afterlife, reincarnation, or anything.
    I was appalled at this remark and inquired:

    So, no matter how good of a person you are, no matter how much you emulate Christ, you won't go to Heaven?
    He responded:

    Right...
    I was persistent:

    But that's terrible! It is contradictory to God's merciful nature!
    The conclusion:

    Well, if you have been preached to by a Jehovah's Witness and you adamantly refuse to accept it as truth, then you won't go to Heaven
    So if I am ignorant of Jehovah's Witness teachings then I will go to Heaven?
    Yes.
    Okay then. I suppose I won't read the book you gave me so that I can go to Heaven out of ignorance.
    I found what he said disturbing, and I just want to know if that is in fact what Jehovah's Witnesses believe.
    Under the patronage of John I Tzimisces

  2. #2
    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    I spent 6 months attending JW Kingdom Halls. They are very good people and try very hard, you could trust them a great deal, however they are fanatics.

    And no, they don't believe in hell. They believe Heaven will be physical, on earth, when all the righteous are raised again. Those who were wicked will just stay dead. They back this up with their interpretations of the Bible (they have their own translation, you see). I have read and studied the Bible for over 30 years - the JW take on the original meaning of the scriptures is not that far removed from reality BTW.

    But they are the ultimate literalists.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    I have read and studied the Bible for over 30 years - the JW take on the original meaning of the scriptures is not that far removed from reality BTW.
    The JW believe that Revelation 14:1 for example which states: "I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000" refers to them.

    They will also have read Revelation 7:4 "and I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel". If they are biblical literalists this seems like a huge oversight to me, Revelation 7:5-8 stipulates 12,000 x 12 = 144,000 from the tribes of Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin, all sons of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham.

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    But they are the ultimate literalists
    Revelation makes a literal connection between Israel, descendents of Jacob (ethnic Jews) and the 144,000. Jehovah's Witnesses obviously don't qualify for the 144,000 if they follow the literal word.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Thutmose View Post
    Revelation makes a literal connection between Israel, descendents of Jacob (ethnic Jews) and the 144,000. Jehovah's Witnesses obviously don't qualify for the 144,000 if they follow the literal word.
    As a teenager, I actually spent a few sessions with some Jehovah's Witnesses, and they said that that's true, 144,000 will ascend to heaven, and the rest of us (who believe), will spend eternity in Paradise on Earth. Their books were full of pictures of diverse people getting along and kids playing with dangerous animals (ie. lions), except all is well because nothing bad happens in this future paradise.

  5. #5
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    They tried to court me in my youth, when I was Catholic. It's one of the sillier versions of Christianity.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Mesa like Christians who actually try to do everything written in the Bible and not picking and choosing. Mesa have Christian relatives who forbid many things for example they wont eat pork, amphibian animals, animals with fangs, and fishes with scales or whatever because the Bible does not allow them to do those things. I say kudos to them because they are not hypocrites.


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

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  7. #7
    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    Mesa like Christians who actually try to do everything written in the Bible and not picking and choosing. Mesa have Christian relatives who forbid many things for example they wont eat pork, amphibian animals, animals with fangs, and fishes with scales or whatever because the Bible does not allow them to do those things. I say kudos to them because they are not hypocrites.
    My in-laws are all Seventh Day Adventists. Great, loving people, and won't eat shellfish or pork etc, are basically vegetarian (they do bad farts), observe a strict Sabbath on a Saturday (the Jewish sabbath) and are very community based. Great people. If they have a family barbeque they will always provide me with a truckload of sausages and steak

    But do you know who the Adventists have also spawned?

    *David Koresh & co, you know, Waco, Texas.
    *Lindy & Michael Chamberlain of "A dingo ate my baby" fame. I have personally met Michael. Didn't like him. I reckon he is gay - who else wears a fishnet singlet over a t-shirt when he is about 50-something years old?

    Any religion can spawn whackos.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    My in-laws are all Seventh Day Adventists. Great, loving people, and won't eat shellfish or pork etc, are basically vegetarian (they do bad farts), observe a strict Sabbath on a Saturday (the Jewish sabbath) and are very community based. Great people. If they have a family barbeque they will always provide me with a truckload of sausages and steak
    Yes now mesa remember my relatives are Adventists. They are kinda super extreme but mesa respek them so long as desa dont disrespek me.
    Last edited by jankren; January 05, 2008 at 10:03 PM.


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

    "Feminists are silent when the bills arrive." -- Aetius

    "Women have made a pact with the devil — in return for the promise of exquisite beauty, their window to this world of lavish male attention is woefully brief." -- Some Guy

  9. #9
    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    Yes now mesa remember my relatives are Adventists. They are kinda super extreme but mesa respek them so long as desa dont disrespek me.
    WTF jankren? Have you been drinking alcohol sahib? :hmmm:

  10. #10

    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    My in-laws are all Seventh Day Adventists. Great, loving people, and won't eat shellfish or pork etc, are basically vegetarian (they do bad farts), observe a strict Sabbath on a Saturday (the Jewish sabbath) and are very community based. Great people. If they have a family barbeque they will always provide me with a truckload of sausages and steak
    They're nice, but they're nice as long as the subject isn't religious dogma. Else they're just like JW, with an almost fanatical literalist interpretation and a loonie heterodox apocalyptical doctrine that claims the US, or some modern nations and events, fill specific roles in the End of The World and in the book of Revelation. They're a very ordinary example of apocalyptical whackos who claim to be the only source of all Christian truth, and also follow the traditional Protestant line of reason dictating that the "Pope is the Antichrist", even going as far as telling that the Catholic Church will manipulate the world in the future... Overall, it's quite a crazy doctrine.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  11. #11
    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire le Philosophe View Post
    They're nice, but they're nice as long as the subject isn't religious dogma. Else they're just like JW, with an almost fanatical literalist interpretation and a loonie heterodox apocalyptical doctrine that claims the US, or some modern nations and events, fill specific roles in the End of The World and in the book of Revelation. They're a very ordinary example of apocalyptical whackos who claim to be the only source of all Christian truth, and also follow the traditional Protestant line of reason dictating that the "Pope is the Antichrist", even going as far as telling that the Catholic Church will manipulate the world in the future... Overall, it's quite a crazy doctrine.
    Maybe, but I will tell you something. If I was in trouble and had to ask somebody for help, it would be the Adventists for me before it was my own government. These people would die for a stranger. There was a Medal of Honour winner in who was an Adventist and he would only serve as a medic because of his religious convictions.

    United States: Adventist Doss, First Conscientious Objector to Win Medal of Honor, Dies at Age 87

    Desmond T. Doss, Sr., who braved ridicule to serve in World War II as a U.S. Army medic without carrying a gun, and who labored on a Sabbath, May 5, 1945, to rescue 75 wounded soldiers pinned down by enemy gunfire on the island of Okinawa, died March 23 at his residence in Piedmont, Alabama. Doss, the only conscientious objector to receive the Congressional Medal of Honor during World War II, was 87 years of age.

    March 24, 2006 Piedmont, Alabama, United States

    Desmond T. Doss, Sr., who braved ridicule to serve in World War II as a U.S. Army medic without carrying a gun, and who labored on a Sabbath, May 5, 1945, to rescue 75 wounded soldiers pinned down by enemy gunfire on the island of Okinawa, died March 23 at his residence in Piedmont, Alabama. Doss, the only conscientious objector to receive the Congressional Medal of Honor during World War II, was 87 years of age.

    It is reported that Doss, a quiet, unassuming man, never liked being called a "conscientious objector," preferring "conscientious cooperator" instead. Instead of accepting a deferment from the military draft, Doss voluntarily joined the U.S. Army, but never took up arms. Assigned to the 307th Infantry, 77th Infantry Division, as a company medic he was often harassed and ridiculed for his beliefs. Raised a Seventh-day Adventist, Doss did not believe in using a gun or killing because of the sixth commandment which states, "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13). Doss was a patriot however, and believed in serving his country.

    According to his Medal of Honor citation, time after time, Doss' fellow soldiers witnessed how unafraid he was for his own safety. He was always willing to go after a wounded comrade, no matter how great the danger. During the May 5, 1945, battle in Okinawa, Doss refused to take cover from enemy fire as he rescued 75 wounded soldiers, carrying them one-by-one and lowering them over the edge of the 400-foot Maeda Escarpment. He did not stop until he had brought everyone to safety nearly 12 hours later. Doss would later credit knot-tying skills learned in an Adventist youth group, the Pathfinders, with helping him accomplish the rescue.

    Despite that day being a Sabbath, or Saturday, Doss understood Jesus' injunction that it was fitting to "do good" on the holy day by saving lives.

    According to media reports, when U.S. President Harry Truman gave Doss his medal, Truman told him, "I'm proud of you; you really deserve this. I consider this [medal] a greater honor than being President."

    Doss' exemplary devotion to God and his country received nationwide acclaim. On July 4, 2004, a statue of Doss was placed in the National Museum of Patriotism in Atlanta, Ga., along with statues of Dr. Martin Luther King, President Jimmy Carter, and retired Marine Corps General Gray Davis, also a Medal of Honor recipient. Also in 2004, a feature-length documentary called "The Conscientious Objector," telling Doss' story of faith, heroism, and bravery was released. A feature movie describing Doss' story is also being planned.

    Ironically, Terry Benedict, who produced the documentary and who will work on the feature film, was receiving a communication Bridge Award from the Seventh-day Adventist Church at the time news of Doss' passing arrived.

    "I saw Desmond about [ten days] ago," Benedict told ANN. "We had a nice chat; he was in good spirits. His story was told on film, and it went far, far beyond what Desmond had ever imagined."

    In and around Washington, D.C., tributes to Doss emerged.

    "There are probably few who appreciated life and freedom more than he did," Major Sheldon Smith, a spokesman for the United States Army, said in a statement. "Private First Class Desmond T. Doss was an American Hero in the truest sense -- one each of us should not hesitate to emulate."

    According to Pastor Don Schneider, president of the Adventist Church in North America, Doss "is considered to be a role model - especially to many of our members. His decision to not bear arms in the most dangerous of times was a courageous and heroic decision that has in turn affected many lives. We are proud to have had Desmond as a member of our Church."

    Doss' survivors include his wife Frances, his son, Desmond T. Doss, Jr., and his brother, Harold Doss. He was preceded in death by his first wife Dorothy Schutte and his sister, Audrey Millner.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    There was a Medal of Honour winner in who was an Adventist and he would only serve as a medic because of his religious convictions.
    Yes, but aren't medics trained to kill as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    They are also so literal about the Bible's references to "blood" that they won't have a blood-transfusion to save their own lives, or their own children's.
    Transfusions didn't exist two thousand years ago, how can Jehovah's Witnesses justify not receiving them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Burnum View Post
    You know when I was Aboriginal kids about Dreamtime and Jehovah's Witness Missionary called me a pagan. They come too the poor Aboriginals trying too convert people.
    Burnum... how old are you? Where were you raised if Missionary's were coming to visit you?


  13. #13

    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by ~The Doctor~ View Post



    Burnum... how old are you? Where were you raised if Missionary's were coming to visit you?
    Missionary's, I meant door knockers. You know how the different religious groups try and convert you.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Burnum View Post
    Missionary's, I meant door knockers. You know how the different religious groups try and convert you.
    I've actually had those people come to my house. I indulged them for about five minutes, then politely told them to **** off.

    Things have changed, haven't they? Two thousand years ago God spoke to you and told you to convert. Now, :wub: come to your house and try convince you that "Jesus Loves YouTM".

    I went to an Anglican school for about eight years, and every service we had had that message, and just that message. I get it, alright?


  15. #15

    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead
    Maybe, but I will tell you something. If I was in trouble and had to ask somebody for help, it would be the Adventists for me before it was my own government. These people would die for a stranger. There was a Medal of Honour winner in who was an Adventist and he would only serve as a medic because of his religious convictions.
    Their efforts are admirable, as are many other religious efforts for charity, help and struggle against poverty on the world. But... the capability of a doctrine to influence their followers to do their best on bad situations is not necessarily proportional to the logic and soberness of said doctrine.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  16. #16

    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Today i finally confronted the Jehovah's who kept visiting my family while I was out. A simple no, pls leave seems to do the job.

  17. #17
    God-Emperor of Mankind's Avatar Apperently I protect
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    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcry View Post
    Today i finally confronted the Jehovah's who kept visiting my family while I was out. A simple no, pls leave seems to do the job.
    Really ??
    That don't work here.
    You can say please leave all you want, these bastards refuse to leave you alone.
    In Sweden they even gotten modern, they use attractive young women to try and convert you.
    Anyway, it's just another religious cult like all the others.
    We point and laugh at them while at the same time feel sorry for them for being raised this way.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by TB666 View Post
    In Sweden they even gotten modern, they use attractive young women to try and convert you.
    If that happened to me I would actually put up with her as long as she wanted and in the end I would justs say "Ill think about it." Too bad all I ever met was old grannies and dudes.


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

    "Feminists are silent when the bills arrive." -- Aetius

    "Women have made a pact with the devil — in return for the promise of exquisite beauty, their window to this world of lavish male attention is woefully brief." -- Some Guy

  19. #19
    Juno's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    If that happened to me I would actually put up with her as long as she wanted and in the end I would justs say "Ill think about it." Too bad all I ever met was old grannies and dudes.
    Duder, if I had a very attractive Swedish woman who was attempting to convert me, I would convince her somehow to marry me, since we can marry those who believe in the scriptures. ;p


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  20. #20
    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

    They are also so literal about the Bible's references to "blood" that they won't have a blood-transfusion to save their own lives, or their own children's.

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