Faction - Banate of Bosnia

[saneel]

I have posted you something about religios symbols for krstjani.

[saneel]

And we are not hostile we are just discousing about histroy and exchanging arguments dont be offended.

[Jackz]

Sure i can help.Consider so called Kristijani more of heretics.Why dont you use a sign on boghumil headstones

Person standing and pointing arm ahead.Thats good sign

All good i wish

As for 1345

I would pick Zupanijas more




There is a nice map by Marko Vega in 1353 you might need it

[Bosnae]

Jackz that map you got their is from the end of Tvrtko's Reign in 1391.
The Map that Matko should was quiet accurate, i would say.

[The Noble Lord]

I am sure Tsardoms:TW maps are more then accurate.

[Matthæus]

map that jackz posted is good but for period over 30 years after mod starts.

[saneel]

if you read below you can see: 1353-1391.

[Matthæus]

dear saneel
1353 is the year when Tvrtko became ban. mod starts in 1345.

now lets see when did Tvrtko made his conquests:

Since 1387, Tvrtko had pretensions to rule the Croatian lands of the Bribir Prince, ancestors across his mother's side as well. He dispatched that year Duke Hrvoje Vukčić to relieve the Siege of Bishop Pavle Horvat in Zagreb. In July the same year, King Stephen made his first greater military success by making Klis to surrender. From there he continued on to Split and then the Zadar hinterland. Finally his forces reached Vrane and freed the rebels from the Hungarian rule that were being besieged there. King Sigismund's men had to fall back to Nin, which was subsequently attacked by Bosnians. Ostrovica was captured in 1388. Tvrtko's forces conducted terror in the Dalmatian cities. Split's hinterland was entirely burned to the ground as a punishment for its stouch loyalty to the Hungarian King and other cities suffered too. The Bosnian forces held Klis, Ostrovica, Vrana and Knin. It is because of this that Trogir decided to accept Tvrtko's supreme rule. Split, Zadar and Šibenik were frightened because of this, so they asked Hungarian King Sigismund for assistance. Tvrtko's ground forces were too weak to assault those cities, so he started building up a navy of his own in Kotor.
............

In the meantime, Hungarian commander Ladislaus conquered Klis in July 1389. Duke Vlatko Vuković returned from Serbia soon, as the Ottomans were temporarily stopped. Tvrtko launched a counteroffensive in the Fall of the same year and struck at the surroundings of Zadar. The Bosnian forces moved to Vrana, where they fought the Hungarian forces several days. The Hungarians have took Vrana and held hostage Tvrtko's ally, Ivan Paližna. The Hungarian Army suffered a heavy defeat and Klis subsequently surrendered to King Stephen Tvrtko. In April 1390 the Dalmatian cities started to negotiate terms of surrender. In the Summer, Split, Trogir and Šibenik all accepted his rule as well as the islands of Brač, Hvar and Korčula. Tvrtko accepted the title by the mercy of God famous King of Rascia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia, the Seaside...


Even wiki has good information.
i'm not saying it is not a good map. just that it shows situation long after mod starts.
if you want to control Dalmatia you will have to conquer it yourself.

[visocicaguy]

If you haven't finished the Bosnian faction yet.... you might add the medieval city of Visoko, or... Mile (where Tvrtko I Kotromanitch was crowned)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visoko_...he_Middle_Ages

also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visoko

it is located at the delta of Fojnica and Bosna river in the heart of Bosnia (at the map posted above it is called Visoki)... archeologists found that there were even Illyric and Roman settlements when they inhabited these lands. later on, there was a castle, a medieval krstjanin heretics church and, based on some evidence, even an university. it was a major trading point with the old town of dubrovnik, tuzla (usora/soli), the venetian lands etc.

you don't have the complete picture without this city

[Bosnian_King]

I agree @Visocica guy. But i think they already chose the cities. But Visoko indeed is a very importent city. Around visoko all the old krstjanin church are settled and also the Bosnian kings were crowned there.

[Bosnian_King]

Military and Religious simbols for krstjani-Bosnians:

The military simbom for krstjani could be this:

http://www.pansion-rose.ba/slike/stecak.jpg

Bosnian soldiers from the middle ages (early middle ages) mostly got this kind of tombstone.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...666/Stecak.jpg

http://bhmedia.se/slike/stecak.jpg

It is always the sam pose. I could put about 2000 pictures of these tombstones of medieval soldiers.

The Bosnian religious simbol was a cross with within it a lilly.

http://irna.lautre.net/IMG/jpg/stecak.jpg

A lilly was the simbol of the Bosnian state. Probably it came from France trough Hungary around 11. to Bosnia.


http://www.destinacije.com/Slike/Hrv...U_Proloscu.JPG

[Bosnian_King]

There were some Bosnian studies to Bosnian medieval weapons. After archeological research we found in Bosnia this kind of swords:


http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/5022/macevihh8.jpg

From the Bosnian grafe tombes which were called the "stecci" we can differentiate different defence weapons:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5...stitovihl1.jpg

We are lucky that Bosnian soldiers were burried in an autentic way and their grafetombs were always decorated with the same simbol; the upstanding Bosnian soldier with his hand wide open:

http://www.pansion-rose.ba/slike/stecak.jpg
http://www.most.ba/111/radimlja.jpg
http://www.chorvatsko.cz/vylet/pict/stecak.jpg

Besides these arhelogical studies to Bosnian medieval weaponery, prof. Enver Imamovic wrote a book "The history of The Bosnian army":

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1171/knjigahf2.jpg

I will translate the part of the book about the medieval Bosnian army. This is the tekst in Bosnian:

Bosanski Vitezovi

Bosanski vitezovi su bili prekaljeni borci koji su svoje vitesko iskustvo stjecali na bojnim poljima,za razliku od vecine ostalih evropskih vitezova koji su to stjecali "uvjezbavanjem".Bosanski vitezovi su na viteskim turnirima bili pravi strah i trepet.Bili su veliki ponos citave Bosne.Jedan Poljski ljetopisac opisuje ucesce Bosanskih vitezova na turniru koji je 1412 godine priredio Kralj Ugarske.Na njemu se naslo 1500 vitezova sa 3000 stitonosa iz 12 zemalja.Ovaj Poljski ljetopisac opisuje Bosanske vitezove kao okretne,neustrasive i vicne svakom oruzju i kaze da im medju tolikim vitezovima nije bilo ravnih.(Joanni Dlugossi,Historiae Poloniae,lib XI,Karakov 1878.,p.327-328.)
Bosanski vladari su pak bili ti koji su stajali na celu Bosanske vojske tokom njenih brojnih ratova.Za vrijeme Kulina Bana,tokom rata izmedju Bizantije i Bosne,zabiljezen je slucaj kada se sam Ban Kulin ogledao u dvoboju sa Bizantijskim Carem,ispred obje vojske.Bizantijski kronicari za nasega Bana Kulina kazu da je rastom bio pravi div! Tokom borbe udario je svoga protivnika tako snazno po licu da mu je vizir kacige dopola usjekao u meso!(F.Milobar,Ban Kulin i njegovo doba,Glasnik Zemaljskog muzeja XV,Sarajevo 1903.,p.357.)

Postoje opisi junastva i drugih Bosanskih vladara.Kada je Bosnom vladao Stjepan II Kotromanic,tokom napada Srbije na Bosnu,u jednom boju protiv Srba je doslo je do situacije da se najzesca borba vodila upravo oko Bana,tako da je bio sasjecen i konj ispod njega.U posljednji trenutak jedan od Bosanskih vojvoda (generala) mu je dao svoga konja i tako mu spasio zivot.Ban se nastavio boriti tako zestoko da je i drugi konj bio sasjecen ispod njega,ali nista ga nije moglo zaustaviti,te na celu Bosanske vojske u potpunosti protjeruje srpsku agresorsku vojsku iz Bosne!

Oprema Bosanskih vitezova se sastojala od pancirne kosulje,kacige na kojoj je ponekad bila perjanica,stita,maca,buzdovana,koplja,bodeza i sl.,a i konjska oprema je bila vrlo raskosna.Svaki Bosanski vitez je imao jednog ili vise stitonosa (pomocnika),koji su se brinuli za njegovu vojnu opremu.

Bosanska vojska nije bila placenicka vojska,kao sto je to bio slucaj u vecini ostalih evropskih zemalja.Njenu okosnicu su cinili Banski,odnosno Kraljevski odredi,koji su cinili stalnu vojsku,a u slucaju rata bila je cast ali i duznost svakog Bosnjaka da pristupi Bosanskoj vojsci.

TRANSLATION important part:

Bosnian knights

Bosnian knights were skilled fighters which had to proove themselves on the fighting field instead of ate the trainingscamp. These Bosnian knights were a real danger at Tournaments. They were the poud of whole the Bosnian state. An Polish writer mentions the Bosnian knights at a tournament of 1412. which was organized by the Hungarian king. To this tournament came 1500 knights with 3000 carriers of weapons from 12 countries. This writer describes them as "strong, unaffraid and able to carry all the possible weapons". He mentions explicitely that on this tounament; among so much knights, there were no other knight who were a match for them. .(Joanni Dlugossi,Historiae Poloniae,lib XI,Karakov 1878.,p.327-328.)

The Bosnian knight was equiped with:

1) Chainmail armor
2)helmet with sometimes a feather attached on it.
3)Stit---> http://www.lepenkovezbroje.cz/Zdroje/stit.jpg
4)sword
5)Buzdovana-->http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...9/Buzdovan.JPG
6)lance
etc.

[Adnan]

Nice pictures Bosnian_King, especially swords and shields

[Bosnian_King]

Nice pictures Bosnian_King, especially swords and shields

I hope they will use it

[Bosnian_King]

What kind of name would you use for the people of the Bosnian Banate and kingdom? Would you call them Bosnjaks (Bosnjaci) as the Franjevci call them during the rule of Ban Ivan Kotromanic in 1059 or would you call them Bosnjani like they call themeselves during the Bosnian kingdom 1353-1463? I would really like to know this if somebody got time to answer this question for me and the Bosnian people in general.

Thank you

thanks

[Bosnian_King]

I hope you don't get tired of me and all my posts but i did some research in coordination with a Bosnian historic forum about the simbol of the Bosnian church. We concluded that the only logical symbol could be a combination of the state simbol,the lilly:

http://www.destinacije.com/Slike/Hrv...U_Proloscu.JPG

http://www.arsuz.info/izv2007/ostalo/stecak.JPG


http://vbnmgz.hr/vbnmgzhr1/images/st...Ljiljani%20na%

And the cross, the simbol of the church, christianity, krscani:

http://www.recoveringbosnia.org/slike/upload/Eleven.jpg

http://www.kalesija.com/otvori/kales...ke/stecak1.jpg

I really think i got a point here. Krcanstvo is the state religion of the krscani. In old Bosnian dokuments (povelje) the Bosnian church i mentioned very frequent and is considered as an important factor in the Bosnian state. So it is logical that if you melt together the cross of the fait and the lilly of the state then you get the simbol of the Bosnian church, Crkva Bosanska. It is great that this simbol really existed as you can see on the old grafeombs of the Bosnjani. Please tell me if you like this idea. I think it is not a bad idea at all! Actually it isn't an idea it existed and it still exist troughout whole Bosnia on the stecci, the toms.

This should be the simbol of the Bosnian church, the only logical:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...tent_large.jpg

http://bp3.blogger.com/_sv9sCjyKssE/...mino_maslo.JPG

[il_duce_!]

What kind of name would you use for the people of the Bosnian Banate and kingdom? Would you call them Bosnjaks (Bosnjaci) as the Franjevci call them during the rule of Ban Ivan Kotromanic in 1059 or would you call them Bosnjani like they call themeselves during the Bosnian kingdom 1353-1463? I would really like to know this if somebody got time to answer this question for me and the Bosnian people in general.

Thank you

thanks

Bosnian people?

We are not going to use any name for the people that lived in that area, because the concept of nation didnt exist in the medieval times.

[Bosnian_King]

In many documents the kings of Bosnia call their people Bosnjani. We Bosnians see this period as the basis of out modern nation. This are the roots of our nation. But that's not important now. I would really appreciate it if somebody looked at the simbol of the Bosnian church which i posted above.

[Bosnian_King]

symbol of faction: we will go with golden lilys on blue background.
symbol of religion - well i dont know yet .

to end all discussion this is map we will use -
map -
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7...eivjerahw1.jpg
1. Zemlja Bosna -
Capital of the state Bobovac Castle.
Religion -majority of people are Krstjani, with a large amount of Orthodox and smaller number of Catholic (K-60%, O-25%, C-15%)

2.Humska Zemlja -
castle - Blagaj (na Buni) not sure yet
Religion -majority Orthodox, some Krstjani and Catholics (O-65%, K-25%, C-10%)

3. Donji Kraje - Završje -
castle-Ključ
Religion -majority Catholic, with some Krstjani, few Orthodox (C-65%, K-25%, O-10%)

4. Usora- Soli
castle - Srebrenik
Religion - mostly Catholic with many Orthodox (C-55%, O-35%, K-10%)

You are the chef and I appreciate you efforts but even Serb historians say that the Orthodox where only in Hum present. The majority should be krcanin and the second group should be katholik. This is the only true and evereyone say this: Croatians, Bosnians and Serbs.

[Matthæus]

Bosnian King:

first thanks for the information - i had some of the picture you posted, and some are new to me. i like the idea of the for "Krstjani" symbol.

Duce:
Indeed the nobility calls them "dobri Bosnjani" but this does not represent an modern sense of nation. the name could represent - people from the region, subjects of a king ( of Bosnia ), or even in some cases proto-nationalism. we use it in this context.

and again Bosnian_King:
the numbers of population that belong to a certain religion are not "set in stone" and could be changed. i wrote those more as a approximate values. some adjustments should be in usora region for example. so don't take those numbers so seriously. maybe i should use only words for description and not write percentages at all. so - hum is majority orhodox, donji kraji is catholic, zemlja bosna krstijan, and usora is mixed krstjani-catholic (strong influence from Hungary).

to all-
i still think that Bobovac (or even Kraljeva Suiska) is much better solution than Visoko. Those castles were seats of the king.