Faction - Banate of Bosnia

[Adnan]

Looks good! Good work TTW team! I cant wait to expand my banate even further

[saneel]

Well i dont know where did you get these info. You have many good history websites like
www.bosnahistorija.16.index.forumer.com or www.zemljabosna.com where you can get the most accurate information as you can. But you are making the mod . I just hope you will make mod playable and you dont underastimate and underpower the strenght and glory of medieval Bosnia,one of the oldest countries on Balkans,and last country on Balkans that fell to Ottomans.

[Matthæus]

i get my information from these books:

T.Raukar; Hrvatsko srednjevjekovlje
Hrvatska Opća enciklopedija
Opća enciklopedija jugoslavenskog leksikografskog zavoda
ĆiroTruhelka- Bosanska narodna crkva
Ć. Truhelka- Državno i sudbeno ustrojstvo B u srednjem vijeku
- Srednjovječni stećci u Bosne i Hercegovine
Marko Perojević: Stjepan II Kotromanić
Ferdo Šišić: Vojvoda Hrvoje i njegovo vrijeme
Krunislav Dragonović: Katolička Crkva u srednjovjećnoj Bosni
Trpimir Macan: Povijest Hrvarskog naroda
Nada Klaić: Srednjovjekovna Bosna: politički položaj bosanskih vladara do Tvrtkove krunidbe, 1377. g.
N. Klaić: Povijest Hrvata u razvijenom srednjem vijeku
http://www.hercegbosna.org/ostalo/sredobos.html
+wikipedeia

and various internet sources. i have also read links you posted.

so this is accurate as it can be.

PS
we have started working on units. some models are already done (ones that they share with other factions, like heavy cavalry for example) but i wont show anything yet. some other factions have higher priority. so when ottomans (they are at 95%) and bulgarians (60%) are completed then we will start skinning bosnian units. but all in all i can confirm that bosnia will be in version 1.0 together with ottomans, serbia, bulgaria and wallachia (+ some factions like venice and hungary that will remain vanilla).

[The Noble Lord]

Good job. Just keep up the good work.

[Bosnae]

Calm donw Mates, i know it looks kinnda one sided but it's the RESULT THAT COUNTS, did ya copy.
For me it looks great what MATKO has brought so far, and i don't see any Point on wich i would disagree with him. Why can't we just be happy that there is an MOD in wich you can Play with an Bosnian Faction. BASTA!!!

MATKO Thumps up man!!!

[Milos98]

Its just a f * * * ing game, so dont be upset if there is some nationalism, you shouldnt fight about it ( stay calm like me : ), its the only balkans mod we ( are going to ) have. Everyone likes to argue, but nobody wants to work...
btw I really like using the first sentence, heard it in some Irish movie

[Bosnae]

Well i am trying to stay calm hope the other will do so.

[SrbLordMija]

It's easy to stay calm when you are going to have it your way!
But I am tolerant so

[Matthæus]

saneel before you start complaining you could read those books. most of these books are required to read in order to pass exams - you should know that I am a professional historian. the people who wrote those books are best that Croatian historiography has to offer. Truhleka is for example the pioneer of medieval archeology in Bosnia. others (Raukar, Klaic, Goldstein) are all professors at the University (some from Zagreb others from Split and Zadar). those names mean something to people who read books written by professionals.
and because our history is closely connected you will find a lot about medieval Bosnia in books that are primarily about Croatian past.
But you should know that i even wrote e-mails to people from "Zemaljski Muzej - Sarajevo" (about use of composite bows and to get some pictures of helmets). I even got some pretty rare books from 40-s that have pictures of some bascinet helmets from Maglaj and Sarajevo that were lost later in the war. I have also red some documents from SPC and Serbian historians like Corovic. and not to forget - transcripts of original primary sources.

so you cant really accuse me for being unprofessional or nationalistic. in what way ?
i don't deny the existence proto-Bosnian nationality ("dobri Bosnjani") in the middle ages or the existence of their unique "Krstjani" faith (and them being majority on central regions of Bosnia). but surely you cant deny existence of orthodox or catholic people (both common people and nobles) or ethnic Croats and Serbs in medieval Bosnia. presence of orthodox church in Podrinje and Hum are facts. so is strong presence of roman-catholic in western and northern parts of Bosnia.

or is the problem that I'm sceptic about number of "700 ships" that Bosnia navy allegedly had (you provided that information). that number is possible only if you count "kaići" (3 meter wooden ship used for fishing). i wonder with such large fleet why didn't Bosnia conquer Venice ? Bosnian army in time of Tvrtko I nad Hrvoje Vukcic was capable fighting force but you seem to go into extremes.

people migrate, borders change why is it so hard to accept ? this mod is not about "who came here first ?" or "who does Bosnia belong to ?". we are trying to re-create historic picture of Balkans in mid 14-century. it is not important to this mod what happened later or what was before. research is complete - we have all data that we need.

if someone has a problem with this - hell, you don't have to download our mod.
but know that this is the only mod that has Bosnia as a faction. some other mods have coats of arms of Bosnian nobility on Serbian units. go bore them.

PS
every male in Balkan thinks he is best in 3 professions:
1. selector of national football team
2. president of the state
3. historian

PPS
why do you bother with things that are impossible to represent in MTW2 ? you don't have nationalities in MTW2. you have factions - and factions are not even similar to modern 20-th century nation-states. it is not important was some noble in (for example) Hum region Orthodox Serb, Catholic Croat or "dobri Bosnjanin". only thing that matters is was he a subject of King of Bosnia or a Tsar of Serbia in 1345.

[Matthæus]

what do you want ?
I'm sorry if you have a problem that the province "Zemlja bosna" (most of Podrinje belongs to this province) will have a orthodox minority and province "Hum" will have a small orthodox majority.
you have noticed that i explained that there will be really small number of orthodox in "Donji kraji" (Western Bosnia).

if you don't like it - don't download the mod ! nobody is forcing you. go make your own mod ! (if you know how)

i have feeling this is going the wrong way. because, like i said before - decision is final. go to some other forum if you want to continue the discussion. this not the place. if any nationalist outburst appear moderator will start deleting posts.

[saneel]

I will dowload the mod if i will want and i will delete it when i will want! I am just saying that you took those research maybe in a few thing in wrong way. I dont give a if there will be orhodox,catholics,muslims.... in the game or not!

I have a felling that the histroy and the complete Bosnian Banate isnt making a man who is Bosnian.

[The Noble Lord]

if you don't like it - don't download the mod ! nobody is forcing you. go make your own mod ! (if you know how)

Well said. +rep for this.

I have a felling that the histroy and the complete Bosnian Banate isnt making a man who is Bosnian.

Tsardoms:Total War team has good historians doing the job and they are going to cover former Yugoslavia for the first time in TW gaming.
I think you should be grateful for that. Plus, the mod is going to be fair and balanced, and completely objective when it comes to historical accuracy concerning all the aspects of history in those regions.


CHEERS

[saneel]

Ok now something about real issues.About Bosnian navy:
Za vrijeme vladavine Kralja Tvrtka Bosanska vojska je imala i svoju flotu.Dio brodova Bosanske ratne flote su cinili brodovi kupljeni u Veneciji,a dio je sagradjen u domacim brodogradilistima u Brsteniku kod Opuzena na Neretvi i u Kotoru.Posto je Bosna bila tada gospodar Primorja veoma cesto su Jadranom krstarili brodovi na kojima se vihorila Bosanska zastava sa zlatnim ljiljanima.

If you didnt made any models for Bosnian units,if is possible all the Bosnian units should have
type of sword called clymore.I was reading something and i found out that this type of sword was called Bosanski mač and was invented in Bosnia.

[Bosnae]

Saneel i can understand you in some kinda of Way, but you are to sensible calm down, MATKO is the right Person for this Job trust in him and just wait for the result before you critisie something.

I Agree with Nobel Lord this mod will be as much accurate as possible and it will be great.

[saneel]

Ok and why were my posts deleted which i was talking about navy and bosnian units?

[Matthæus]

snaeel

- there are a few types of swords that are specific to Bosnia and medieval Croatia and Dalmatia. but they aren't claymores. they are called ( by Venetians ) Schiavona, meaning Slavic swords, those swords were brought from eastern Adriatic coast by mercenaries who were hired to serve in Venetian army. But this is more a renaissance weapon. There is a theory that these swords inspired the Claymore.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_schia.html

in tsardoms there is (model done) its predecessor - the Schiavonesca swords. Those swords first appeared in Dalmatia, medieval Croatia and Bosnia. again they were soon adopted by Venetians (so today they are sometimes called "the venetian sword").
http://www.myarmoury.com/review_dt5152.html

even before that there is a type of sword that has a curved cross-guard. those were used in Bosnia, some parts of Croatia, and Rascia. I will make that model too

[saneel]

Matko,Bosnia has unique problem for that period. The religion of people is kristijani,but the kings like Stjepan Kotromanic was catholic. How will you solve this?

[Bosnae]

Don't worry this was never an problem in Medieval Bosnia the Kings and Bans always toleratet or even in some cases supportet the Bosnian Church, so i think that this would have no impact on the game.

[Jackz]

aneel before you start complaining you could read those books. most of these books are required to read in order to pass exams - you should know that I am a professional historian. the people who wrote those books are best that Croatian historiography has to offer. Truhleka is for example the pioneer of medieval archeology in Bosnia. others (Raukar, Klaic, Goldstein) are all professors at the University (some from Zagreb others from Split and Zadar). those names mean something to people who read books written by professionals.
and because our history is closely connected you will find a lot about medieval Bosnia in books that are primarily about Croatian past.

So, he told me to come here, its obvious you are picking on him, as he has boyish history knowledge.Most of those youths come to learn something about history, or sometimes they ask me.As for who, or what i am.I am the person who has destroyed, chew, and spit some of those brilliant Serb and Croat historians, be it on allempires.com,. or any other





Truhelka was archeology like Porfigogenet was an emperor and not historian.Like Jordanes was playfull poet traveler, who was branded name of modern historian.If Ferdo Sisic was somebody you should learn and admire in history, then which way is the worst prison.Since that guy is funny what it writes.You mentioned Klaic Nada, she does have something you probably will vaguely ever have, and thats concept of truth.



But before i even relately start talking or arguing, whatever your position might be.I have to write some things first



To this person, who claims the Bulgarian heredic Orthodoxy and boghumilis.Not even closely.During the reign of Simeon 893-927, Bulgaria was firmly in clatches of his nominal rule, and especially christian rule.This came to play during the Khan Boris 1 Rule in 1852 untill around 1866 when he formally accepted Christianity and told its people to accept Christianity.Rulers of Bulgaria were Khan, from Khrum to Omurtag.Especially Khrum who in 814 almost devoured Byzantine king when he captured him, and made his skull usefull for his wine habbit.Boris had 2 sons.Vladimir was paghan, and Simeun was christian.They both pretended for a throne.Since old Boris was sick, his youngest son Vladimir came to throne and abolished CHRISTIANITY, as his first decree.He had many followers.Az Bog edan or one if the God.Their concept of god was all together different from Christian points of what god is, or it isnt.He was killed, but many of his followers escaped to Bosnia, and especially western France, Southern and other parts

Remember untill 1317 and black friday, Cathars were a dominant force in French political and cultural life.And their Anti-Pope was located in Bosnia, where once every 5 year they would come to Bosnian boghumil monasteries and ascended into the teaching


Famous is Kathar Arcbishop Ugrin who in 1222 declared Bosniaks are the worst heathen that they are,a nd i will personally start the crusade against Stjepan Kulinic, and later young Matej Ninoslav, who was in youth chief Banum Bosnae under Bosnian did Radostoje, who was at that time leader of Bosnian church.Bosnians were surely Cathars, or Hungarian and other rulers wouldnt send such an army.Ninoslav was later put official pardon if he would introduce Dominikans into Bosnia, around 1240, but thats not an issue


Thing here, mister history or historian, i have degree in that so i will call myself world historian.Those people you mention are from same Cultural point as you.Did you read Halecki, Thallosy, Fine,Donia,Malcolm.Or is old Ferdo biggest historian there.Good you didnt mention Dominik Mandic as a relevant source.But alas, you do try.As for me.Im not here to brag.Just to give some knowledge to those, who might seek one


Bid you farewell, and if you have some good historical topics i would gladly come, so i can really test all your vast knowledge you have

[Matthæus]

dear Jackz

i dont see your point

first - i did not go into discussion about Krstjani. only thing that in important for the game is that they will be treated like the separate faith. and state religion in this case. their dogmatic differences from catholic church are really not relevant for the game like medieval2. only maybe in some description of the buildings that you build. other than that this stuff doesent really appear anywhere.
second - ferdo sisic. ok he is a bit old and not correct in some areas. but there are lot of other historians that i mentioned. i read dominik mandic, but of course i dont consider hem being a "relevant" source. it is obvious that he was an right wing extremist (you can freely call him a nazi) and wrote crap if you ask me.
third - only events between 1345 and 1530 are ones that this mod is about.

and i dont see how we (this mod) deserved souch a hostile attitude ? what is exactly your problem with Tsardoms ?

if you want to be helpful (and not to make an flame war on the forum) help me with one thing. a religion in game must have a symbol. i'm not sure what to put for "Krstjani".

snaeel
MTW has limitations. so we couldn't really make everything at it should be. we decided to make a new religion "Krstjani" as official religion.