Romans but not Spartans ~ why. ...most of you wont believe in this.

[Amorphos]

Romans but not Spartans ~ why. ...most of you wont believe in this.

to me the spartans had all the ingredients needed to forge a great empire like the romans or macedonians but they didn’t - why. we know the historical reasons, but i want to look beyond that...

if there is a super intelligence out there somehow guiding things, or if the future dictates the historical path and hence makes things happen in the past respectively, then; to get to where we are now we would need the romans or something like them, to unify everything. we could see how spartans would make a lot of helots if they had made an empire, we could say that all empires do the same but not to the same extent.

so given a choice you would choose romans over spartans to be ruled by wouldn’t you. so in the greater collective consciousness more minds would be against a spartan empire. equally to arrive at our present state we would need to have been ruled by romans and not spartans, to end up with democracy rather than fascism ~ which has been the two major forces right up to its climax in WWII with hitler as the last dictator on the main stage [hopefully the last].

how do you see it - is there more to history than what appears to be so?

history could have gone many ways but it didn’t ~ why? [please don’t give historical answers, i am looking for reasons beyond that].

[Chaigidel]

too many slaves and too many pure warriors

the romans had engineer army; soldiers and architects etc

the spartans purely studied combat and spent all the time they had suppressing the numerically superior helots


I would choose romans any day; if you werent a spartan you were a slave, romans at least allowed you to become a citizen even if you werent a roman.

[Amorphos]

chai

i would choose romans too. sparta had architects etc and had defeated athens, so could have continued hellenic expansionism with spartan warriors at the forefront. the helots would have become part of the greater slave population.

the point is that something made things go another way even though spartans were the greatest warriors. the same can be said in WWII, to some degree the germans had the better overall force and could have beaten most european nation singularly. however that would have resulted in a completely incompatible future scenario.

puppet shells that further a great agenda is exactly what we are !

interesting! please elaborate?

ferrets

The idea that the Spartans "had all the ingrediants to forge a great empire" is romanticised nonsense. They had significant and numerous problems.

true but nothing that a great leader wouldnt take care of [e.g. like alexander].

[Ummagumma]

if there is a super intelligence out there somehow guiding things, or if the future dictates the historical path and hence makes things happen in the past respectively, then; to get to where we are now we would need the romans or something like them, to unify everything.

If you subscribe to any form of predetermination it is quite obvious that everything that has happened, no matter how trivial, happened to achieve the 'now' we are are in, which is in itself a necessary step towards some planned future.

If Archimedes had not died at Syracuse, If the white ship had not sunk, if JFK had not been shot, if Monty Python had made another series - If I had not had Bacon and Egg sandwiches for breakfast the world would be a different place, and therefore would not be the 'predetermined' one.

Of course, one has to assume that there is a plan, and that the plan is going according to plan for any predetermination to hold water - which it obviously will be considered to be.

I have a more 'cause and effect' view. Obviously the past dictates the future to a certain degree, but it is in the current time (which is now the past already) that defines itself, and the future will just build upon it, rather than there being an 'end point' that reality mystically steers itself towards. We all learn (I hope) from the past - we do not need to reinvent the wheel, and likewise systems that work get kept and improved, systems that don't fade away.

It could just be the pretentious nature of a conscious being, but I think my actions are my own (within certain psychological parameters) rather than me merely inhabiting a puppet-shell that furthers some great agenda.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Romans but not Spartans ~ why. ...most of you wont believe in this.

to me the spartans had all the ingredients needed to forge a great empire like the romans or macedonians but they didn’t - why. we know the historical reasons, but i want to look beyond that...

if there is a super intelligence out there somehow guiding things, or if the future dictates the historical path and hence makes things happen in the past respectively, then; to get to where we are now we would need the romans or something like them, to unify everything. we could see how spartans would make a lot of helots if they had made an empire, we could say that all empires do the same but not to the same extent.

so given a choice you would choose romans over spartans to be ruled by wouldn’t you. so in the greater collective consciousness more minds would be against a spartan empire. equally to arrive at our present state we would need to have been ruled by romans and not spartans, to end up with democracy rather than fascism ~ which has been the two major forces right up to its climax in WWII with hitler as the last dictator on the main stage [hopefully the last].

how do you see it - is there more to history than what appears to be so?

history could have gone many ways but it didn’t ~ why? [please don’t give historical answers, i am looking for reasons beyond that].

The Spartans often couldn't or were unwilling to pursue any intervention outside of the Penopolese due to the way their state was organised - massive slave labour, small citizen population. Their army had to be constantly to hand to put down the Helot revolts that could and often did happen.

When they inheirited the Athenian Empire after her defeat Sparta lost it in a measely three years due to their inept governorship.

The idea that the Spartans "had all the ingrediants to forge a great empire" is romanticised nonsense. They had significant and numerous problems.

[Chaigidel]

puppet shells that further a great agenda is exactly what we are !

[Ummagumma]

puppet shells that further a great agenda is exactly what we are !

Does that not mean I am no longer responsible for my actions though.. they are not my actions at all, they are the actions of the great cosmic puppeteer? No one is any more accountable for anything, because it is all happening 'as it was meant to be'?
Predetermination makes morality, justice, freedom, peace and many other (often abstract) concepts that are quite important to many of us meaningless. Things are as is meant to be. If I didn't split his head open with an axe, we would not have arrived at this predetermined time - therefore I am not responsible for murder, but rather I am acting as the 'Hand of God'.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Christ, what nonsense. The Peloponnesian War and the Battle of Leuktra utterly shattered the prententions of Spartan invincibilty and fearlessness. Athenians captured Spartans who surrended their arms, hundreds of them. Thebes destroyed a full strength Spartan army. You are basing your thoughts on 300, not history.

[Amorphos]

ferrets,

well i am looking to the greater purpose not a history lesson. the thebans if i remember had greater numbers and a far deeper phalanx which the spartans couldnt get through no matter how strong. the athenians capture just a few who were being gradually taken out by archers without any hope of being reenforced, so any man would give in.

all of which is by the by. all the way down the line there are subtle changes that could occur. the spartans could have used mercenaries or could have won that battle etc etc

[Amorphos]

ummagumma

you are very much on topic!

Does that not mean I am no longer responsible for my actions though.. they are not my actions at all, they are the actions of the great cosmic puppeteer? No one is any more accountable for anything, because it is all happening ‘as it was meant to be’?

there are two influences in the world; the individual and the environmental. overall the environmental is the greater as it includes all the individual. so if your thoughts are going to make changes to the environement then they would need to be relevant to them. for instance if you wanted to become a politician then you would soon find that upon becoming one you would have to change accordingly. to get votes you would have to act and be in a given way, equally so if you were a leader like alexander. history then cut his life short and killed all of his children as he had perhaps too much influence which was not relevant to the greater path.

you may note that no one leader nor peoples have ever completely ruled the world, there is always a flow and a balance.

[Ummagumma]

equally so if you were a leader like alexander. history then cut his life short and killed all of his children as he had perhaps too much influence which was not relevant to the greater path.

The 'greater path' is a self fulfilling prophecy. If you believe in predetermination, then current event are pre-determined in order for tomorrow to be on schedule. Regardless as to whatever happens, everything will be part of 'the plan' - unless there are some Terry Pratchett style 'Auditors' running around filling in the gaps.
Alexander got too influential, and no longer fit the plan? I thought it was just unfortunate. Why did Queen Victoria (a very long lived and highly influential Monarch) not suffer a similar fate?
It is impossible to argue against it, I know - as everything happened to bring us to where we are. I cannot see why/how it is predetermined, but through cause and effect it can be (on a small scale) predicted.

[Amorphos]

lord of knights

roma was just a city to begin with.

ummagumma

The ‘greater path’ is a self fulfilling prophecy. If you believe in predetermination, then current event are pre-determined in order for tomorrow to be on schedule.

i don’t believe in predetermination, i think the path is cut as it goes along. at the same time the environment is vast and not necessarily set in the present. given infinite potential their must be flexibility so it would be a balance of one thing offset by another, the environmental by the individual.
the environment would possible include future potentiality as the infinite is present in all times. we may perhaps think of it as like potentials slot in where they can fit, so if democracy is present now then all things must lead up to that ~ yet this gives a very wide scope for potentials rather than making each even specific to its cause.

Alexander got too influential, and no longer fit the plan? I thought it was just unfortunate. Why did Queen Victoria (a very long lived and highly influential Monarch) not suffer a similar fate?

this is what i mean! queen victoria and the british empire was more fluid than previous empires and eventually ‘gave’ many of its prizes away. the romans were more fluid and universal than alexander who was equally moreso than the spartans.

through cause and effect it can be (on a small scale) predicted.

yes then add all the small things together in the greater perspective. sure you don’t get predetermination as entire, but you do get influences and the more flexible/universal they are, then the more they will continue.

[removeduser_487563287433]

ferrets,

well i am looking to the greater purpose not a history lesson. the thebans if i remember had greater numbers and a far deeper phalanx which the spartans couldnt get through no matter how strong. the athenians capture just a few who were being gradually taken out by archers without any hope of being reenforced, so any man would give in.

all of which is by the by. all the way down the line there are subtle changes that could occur. the spartans could have used mercenaries or could have won that battle etc etc

The Athenians captured hundreds of Spartan citizens by stranding them on an island. The Theban innovation defeated the Spartan force. Both occaisions show how Sparta will ill suited to deal with changing circumstances and were tactically vulnrable.

[King of Axum]

Christ, what nonsense. The Peloponnesian War and the Battle of Leuktra utterly shattered the prententions of Spartan invincibilty and fearlessness. Athenians captured Spartans who surrended their arms, hundreds of them. Thebes destroyed a full strength Spartan army. You are basing your thoughts on 300, not history.

Im preety sure he said no historical facts.

I believe God works in the afairs of men signifying his pressence in major/ non major events in history. the reason why the romans created a longer streching/ lasting empire is because they had to by 13 BC establish an unfied empire for the coming of christ. with there road improvements and better laws for the downtrotted. these things allowed Jesus's ministry to spread like wild fire around the roman world.

[Amorphos]

chai

[1] all actions are reflected in the greater universe and the greater universe in turn reflects itself within you; [2] thus no matter what you choose to do it is the hand of god;

i agree with point one, but not point two ~ unless you can say what god is and how everything that is done is done by him? i would think this state of affairs to be impossible unless you consider it so that all things are god, then god is all things and not god!

and these choices are made specifically to bring about the creation of a supreme being at the end of all things, so that it can go back in time and ensure its own existence.

existence-creates-god-creates-existence?

if the universe came to an end [which i doubt would be ‘the’ end], then i can see that there may be something which is the all and everything. however it would also be necessarily nothing and thence would not have the quality of creation. existence would have to occur extraneously to it, this would then deny its creation ability relative to it.

king of axum

these things allowed Jesus’s ministry to spread like wild fire around the roman world.

ha, nice try. the buddhists spread their word much earlier without to much problem, it is not really a matter of time at least not a short amount of time, most of europe wasnt christian until a few hundred years after christ.

edit:

may i say that all the spartans needed was a change of military policy as like happened in macedon! the lesser spartans could have been used for more flexible forms of fighting as like alexander used hypaspists, the number could have come from mercs and defeated enemies like athens - with a better government. all of which could have been changed by one man and in the right position and a few decisions.

time commander bob.

If Rome was such a great empire that people in the future wanted, why did their “collective consciousness” let it fall?

all empires fall, the romans made too many enemies and couldnt counter the more flexible huns, this showed other that they could be defeated. secondly the late empire didn’t have the plate armoured troops of the post marian empire. it relied on mail armour which the barbarians had since before the romans, only now they had better production and production capabilities - thanks to the romans.

perhaps decentralisation follows centralisation? democracy can cope with both.

there are always logical alternatives to explain why things happen, it is just the fact that i couldnt see them happening in much a different way! this is what i am trying to look at ~ the bigger picture, if there is one.

About the point about democracy rather than fascism, surely if people prefer democracy in the future then why were people like Hitler and Mussolini even given a chance in the first place? It also doesn’t explain why Nationalist Spain won the Spanish civil war either.

there has always been a balance between orders of varying kinds, and people have always wanted power, which is why they suck up to anything they think will give it to them. mussolini was at first thought of as someone who would make italy great - not so much militarily. he was even awarded the nobel peace prize if i remember rightly. both germany and italy needed unification after a disastrous war and the depression.

If history happens because people now and in the future would prefer things to have happened in a certain way, those people must have very strange definitions of “ideal”.

more better than ideal, and also more like attracts like than desires.

i see it all more like tides and currents in the greater waters of eternity.

[Earl of Rochester]

If anyone had a chance of becoming an empire it would be the Athenians.

The Romans were successful because they were inclusive. Rome did not dominant Europe, Europe became Rome. Anyone could become Roman. On the other hand you have the Spartans, who even the half-blooded Spartans were considered second class. It was extremely exclusive and depended on a huge slave population that was growing, while the population of Sparta itself was shrinking.

And their army lacked significant diversification. The Macedonians were so successful because they had great infantry and cavalry.

Also the political system. Two Kings and a council of oligarchs. Not exactly the ideal system.

Im sorry, but Sparta had far too many hurdles to overcome.

If I were to pick a Greek City that could have potentially become a "Rome" then I would say Athens, and we all know how that ended.

[The Sixth Wizard]

I find it sad that after the Republic descended into civil war and was saved by a great emperor, Augustus, who made the empire momentarily a much better place, the system was screwed over AGAIN because incompetent emperors would come to the throne. Really makes you think, doesn't it; democracy doesn't work and dictatorship doesn't either. Are we just destined to fight with each other or what?!

Oh yes and the Spartans failed because in the end their system sucked. They were only briefly successful because the circumstances in their place in the world were right for a while (after and during which they were beaten like any other city-state), and were only renowned for being pig-headed musclemen who liked violating young boys. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartan_pederasty
Get over them, people.

[Earl of Rochester]

Why sad? The fall of Rome laid the groundwork for the civilization we know and love.

And quite a lot of Greek pederasty was platonic.

[Duke_of_Bavaria]

Get over them, people.

You get over Rome.
You're on these forums because you know war rules, Spartans ruled war!

[Erwin Rommel]

hey! why is this in Ethos anyway??