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  1. #1

    Default Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291041,00.html
    Sunday, July 29, 2007
    By James Sherk

    Supporters of the latest minimum-wage hike have the best of intentions. They want the higher minimum wage to lift low-income families out of poverty — but that doesn’t change where the road paved with good intentions leads. The increase will actually harm the very workers it’s intended to help.

    Raising the minimum wage seems an obvious way to help low-income workers. Their wages go up and they earn more money. How could raising the minimum wage possibly hurt them?

    Because the workers who will earn the new minimum wage after it rises are not the same workers who earned the old minimum wage before it went up. Since it costs more to hire workers, employers will hire fewer of them. And they will change who they hire for the positions they keep.

    If the government forces companies to pay higher wages, more skilled and productive workers will apply for their positions. Given the choice between hiring an unskilled worker and one with more experience, companies virtually always hire the more productive employee. Employers will replace many of the unskilled workers who work for the minimum wage today with more skilled workers who would have earned more than $5.15 an hour regardless.

    Many economic studies demonstrate that employers respond in exactly this manner. Outside the dry world of academic journals, this means that welfare recipients trying to get off the dole, new immigrants who speak little English, and inner-city minority teenagers from disadvantaged backgrounds have a much harder time finding jobs. These workers tend to lack jobs skills that make them attractive employees.

    Given a choice between hiring a middle-class college student or a minority teenager who goes to an inner-city public school, employers will hire the college student if both will work for the same wage. Raising the minimum wage by 50 percent also raises the probability that teenage African-American high-school dropouts will lose their jobs by over 25 percent.

    As a result, research consistently shows that higher minimum wages do not reduce poverty. Most of the benefits go to suburban teenagers or college students, not those who actually need help. While some low-income workers get a raise, many others lose their jobs.

    Putting unskilled employees out of work hardly helps them. Worse, though, is the way the lack of job opportunities makes it harder for these employees to gain the skills necessary to get ahead in the market place.

    Minimum-wage jobs are entry-level positions. Few workers who start out at minimum wage stay there. Over time, they demonstrate their reliability and gain valuable skills such as how to interact productively with customers, or accept direction from the boss. This makes them more valuable and earns them raises. Two-thirds of minimum-wage workers earn a raise within a year.

    When the minimum wage rises, it saws off the bottom rung of the career ladder for many unskilled workers. They become less attractive to hire at the higher wages, so they miss the opportunity to gain valuable work skills and earn raises. A policy designed to help them leaves them in poverty. Past increases in the minimum wage have hurt the earnings and job prospects of unskilled workers over a decade after they passed for precisely this reason. Many unskilled workers were denied the ability to get on-the-job-training with a minimum-wage job and were left playing catch-up when they finally did find an entry-level job.

    They may mean well. But supporters of the new minimum-wage hike have hurt the low-income workers they wanted to help.

    In my opinion a well thought out and well written article about the dangers of limiting the free market.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  2. #2
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Ah yes lets return to the guilded age! WHere peolpe were turned into debt slaves! Yay Libertarianism!
    according to exarch I am like
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    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    The truth is to be blunt Americans are just too stupid when it comes to handling money. I read about American families who make over $100000/year and still fall into debt. I was like what the ****?!? No matter how much the minimum wage is raised it wont matter so long as you do not know how to manage your finance.

    Even the bike repairman close to where I live in my third world country who makes about $1500/year and has quite a few kids recently managed to buy a house that cost tens of thousands in dollars after saving for decades.


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

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  4. #4
    Sosobra's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    The truth is to be blunt Americans are just too stupid when it comes to handling money. I read about American families who make over $100000/year and still fall into debt. I was like what the ****?!? No matter how much the minimum wage is raised it wont matter so long as you do not know how to manage your finance.

    Even the bike repairman close to where I live in my third world country who makes about $1500/year and has quite a few kids recently managed to buy a house that cost tens of thousands in dollars after saving for decades.
    Sweeping inaccurate generalizations for the win,
    I find most people irritating
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosobra View Post
    Sweeping inaccurate generalizations for the win,
    To be fair he is Indonesian. (just joking)

  6. #6

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosobra View Post
    Sweeping inaccurate generalizations for the win,
    Mesa indeed made generalization but yousa get the point.


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

    "Feminists are silent when the bills arrive." -- Aetius

    "Women have made a pact with the devil — in return for the promise of exquisite beauty, their window to this world of lavish male attention is woefully brief." -- Some Guy

  7. #7

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    The following mininium wages are in the UK:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    The following minimum wage amounts apply (as of 1 October 2007):

    * £5.52 per hour for 22-year-olds and above (this has risen since 1999 from the initial £3.60 an hour).
    * £4.60 per hour for 18-to-21-year-olds
    * £3.40 per hour for under-18s who have finished compulsory education
    * None for those who have not yet finished compulsory education (the age when a person finishes compulsory education is either 15 or 16, depending on where their birthday falls in the school year)

    A £4.15 a day deduction can be made for living accommodation. No extra benefits such as redundancy, pension payments, loans, or awards can be included as pay, with the exception of tips that are distributed through the payroll system.

    The policy is criticised for its separate tier of payment for 18–21 year olds, who are expected to pay tax, or pay £3,070 per year for university, and pay National Insurance, yet can still be paid 92p per hour less than other adults.
    I think its a fair system (especially when considering £1 = $2). I don't believe that it has to much effect on companies - the UK has been fairly prosperous since it was introduced (in 1998).

    I don't like the government spending £160bn on social security and more than £500bn on other expenditure but I do like the idea of the minimum wage - because it rewards those who are working rather than those who are too lazy to.

    I don't like the idea of 18-21 year olds having a lower wage, this is because of the cost of university fees and accommodation. Although I am bias (I will be going to Uni in October).
    Under the Patronage of Imb39
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  8. #8
    LoZz's Avatar who are you?
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    The following mininium wages are in the UK:


    I think its a fair system (especially when considering £1 = $2). I don't believe that it has to much effect on companies - the UK has been fairly prosperous since it was introduced (in 1998).

    I don't like the government spending £160bn on social security and more than £500bn on other expenditure but I do like the idea of the minimum wage - because it rewards those who are working rather than those who are too lazy to.

    I don't like the idea of 18-21 year olds having a lower wage, this is because of the cost of university fees and accommodation. Although I am bias (I will be going to Uni in October).
    the average age for leaveing home in the uk is around 23-25. something like that.
    so uni or no uni most if not all 18-21 year olds still live at home and have there mother doing there washing for them and there father paying for the roof over there head. even those who go to uni can get grants and other money thrown at them which they are under no duty to pay back till they are earning real money, many uni students also get hand outs from mummy and daddy still (though i know many dont).

    in short 18-21 year olds even though they are adults still live in the same way they did before being 18. and us such there outgoings are not that high. i get minimum wage for a 19 year old, and even though i only do 11-17 hours a week i still have loads of money, more then i need. simply because i live at home.
    Last edited by LoZz; January 05, 2008 at 07:30 PM.

  9. #9
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosobra View Post
    Sweeping inaccurate generalizations for the win,
    a generalization perhaps. inaccurate? not really.
    house of Rububula, under the patronage of Nihil, patron of Hotspur, David Deas, Freddie, Askthepizzaguy and Ketchfoop
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  10. #10
    DimondLight's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    The truth is to be blunt Americans are just too stupid when it comes to handling money. I read about American families who make over $100000/year and still fall into debt. I was like what the ****?!? No matter how much the minimum wage is raised it wont matter so long as you do not know how to manage your finance.

    Even the bike repairman close to where I live in my third world country who makes about $1500/year and has quite a few kids recently managed to buy a house that cost tens of thousands in dollars after saving for decades.
    Just because you make a lot of money doesn't mean you should automatically be able to buy what you want. My dad makes $93,000 but we don't have much money to spare, and he's in charge of a school's budget, so he knows how to handle money.
    Proud American







  11. #11

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    could be, the money i currently have left over which i spend on random crap would just be put towards the increased rent (i pay rent but obviously less than i would on my own). for about double my current rent i could afford a small flat in my city, then for the price of my current rent i could buy food (my mum actually uses the rent money to buy our food). so basically at home i spend around 1/5th of my wages on rent but i could easily support myself independatly for around 3/5ths of my wages (food + rent) with some left over for other expenses.
    You dont have a clue. There are lots of expenses you dont even think about. How cheap is rent there for crying out loud? Thats like 400 bucks a week. I would have to but my whole salary towards the rent. How will you furnish your own place. What about utilities? How do you get to work?
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  12. #12

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    dbl
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  13. #13

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Minimum wage is a simple necessity to prevent modern nations turning into Dickensian nightmares. If anything the minimum wage in America needs to be increased.

  14. #14
    ErikinWest's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Minimum wage is a simple necessity to prevent modern nations turning into Dickensian nightmares. If anything the minimum wage in America needs to be increased.
    The racist South African unions would have agreed. Except, they were at least honest. They openly advocated a higher minimum wage for blacks as they knew it would benefit their white workers with less competition. Hong Kong has no minimum wage, Singapore has no minimum wage. Yet those two countries, have the highest standard of living (along with Japan and Korea, which do have price floors). If you want to see a Dickensian nightmare, its not in the countries with no minumum wages (prosperous and rich Hong Kong and Singapore, which have GDP per capita's higher than its colonizer, Great Britain), its the other countries with them: Laos, Cambodia, and Myanmar.

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    Problem Sleuth's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    (prosperous and rich Hong Kong and Singapore, which have GDP per capita's higher than its colonizer, Great Britain), its the other countries with them: Laos, Cambodia, and Myanmar.
    And the prosperous and rich US, which has a minimum wage. Anyway... We can't have a fair comparison unless they're moderately even. How does industrialization, education, etc. compare?
    Armed with your TOMMY GUN, you are one hard boiled lug. Nobody mess with this tough guy, see?

  16. #16
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    But that impairs freedom! You Fascist!
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    In the broadest sense of the word it most certainly does. But so does legislation telling people they can't dump industrial waste into rivers, raise fighting dogs called Bull's Eye or operate a gang of lovable theiving street urchins.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    What happens when the company reduce the cost wages down too illegals immigrants? What happens when the company decides too make them work like slaves.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Burnum View Post
    What happens when the company reduce the cost wages down too illegals immigrants? What happens when the company decides too make them work like slaves.
    They'll be sent to prison, of course.

  20. #20
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Is it a coinidence that unemployment has been rising in the USA since the minimum wage increase of last year? Unemployment is now at 5%.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

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