Rome vs. Medieval II

[Wingman]

Now this isn't exactly a rant, because I think rants are a stupid way that the terminally obsessed nitpick the hell out of whatever they choose to obsess about thus ruining it for themselves and everyone else.

But recently I have had a few thoughts about Rome and Medieval 2.

Medieval 2 and Rome are both great games, and I've played both for quite a while. After MTWII came out I largely abandoned Rome and stuck to playing the latest installment of the series. I installed mods for it and took advantage of all the awesome things out there

Fun stuff. Whatever.

Recently I reinstalled Rome and some found the latest version of some mods for it, and one of the things I noticed immediately was how well stuff used to work.

Blocks of infantry charged into their enemies in one wave and everyone near the enemy participated in the fight. Not running until a few men made contact and the rest waved their weapons menacingly.

Units utilized ladders and towers correctly without getting stuck on them, or on the wall itself. Men could actually be click-drag positioned in cities.

Cavalry actually got their charge bonus.

This is my question to those who have technical expertise about this sort of thing: how did the developers take something that worked fine before and tweak it into and obnoxious disaster?

[Problem Sleuth]

It isn't so much the developers as SEGA rushing them. And the cavalry -does- charge right if you download the patches and such - perhaps more realistically than in Rome: Total War. Or at least it seems that way. I prefer Medieval II myself, so... Meh.

[Pyrebound]

Heh yea in rtw they move at normal speed when they 'charge' but still the men get thrown 2m up in the air. When youre moving your cavalry from middle of the battle the enemies just got pushed aside.

[Ältester der Motten]

Heh yea in rtw they move at normal speed when they 'charge' but still the men get thrown 2m up in the air. When youre moving your cavalry from middle of the battle the enemies just got pushed aside.

On a sidenote, I loved the confused masses of enemy unites when they got thrown up by my elephants and landed just rightly before the walls, always stuck when trying to run away in fright. <3<3 Too cute.

[Queen Annes Revenge]

I agree that the cohesion of units in Rome was better, but I prefer a modded M2TW because the Rome battles were just too fast for me. I would take cavalry around to flank, and before you know it, my entire line of infantry has routed. The 15 second infantry clashes which resulted in chain routing was its fatal flow in my opinion.

For improved unit cohesion in Medieval 2 by the way, check out the RealCombat mod.

[Emperor Tom]

I like how units used to go flying. With M2TW cavalry charges things become a bit...lame. Wheres the action, the excitement, the flying carnage. But the M2TW had blood...:hmmm:

[Wingman]

I agree that the cohesion of units in Rome was better, but I prefer a modded M2TW because the Rome battles were just too fast for me. I would take cavalry around to flank, and before you know it, my entire line of infantry has routed. The 15 second infantry clashes which resulted in chain routing was its fatal flow in my opinion.

For improved unit cohesion in Medieval 2 by the way, check out the RealCombat mod.

Combat in modded Rome take a long time to resolve itself. It feels a lot more like old Medieval.

What is this RealCombat? I tried to look it up and found it in the Cemetery section. Do any of the current major mods improve unit cohesion? I play with Stainless Steel and I don't notice a difference.

[Sokar Rostau]

Umm... Units go flying on a proper cavalry charge in M2TW. You might have to make sure they are using lances and not melee weapons, but they definitely go flying. Then again, I haven't bothered patching yet and it could have been broken.

[Faris ad Din]

You can no longer have cavalry charge when they are already in motion like in RTW. You need to have them fully stop and neatly assembled, facing the targeted enemy with a good minimum distance for the cavalry to get the proper "Charging" status tag. And you do get units flying up about two meters in M2:TW.

[Queen Annes Revenge]

The new SS (the one that requires Kingdoms) comes with RealCombat and in my opinion greatly improves infantry cohesion... I have yet to see the front rank only charging and engaging. Units still space themselves out a bit too much when engaged, but that's easily fixed by ordering them to march past the enemy; then they bunch up.

Which RTW mod did you use? I'd like to try it.

[Problem Sleuth]

You can no longer have cavalry charge when they are already in motion like in RTW. You need to have them fully stop and neatly assembled, facing the targeted enemy with a good minimum distance for the cavalry to get the proper "Charging" status tag

I've had plenty of charges where I'm moving them away form the enemy for a bit, have them turn around 180 degrees, and it succeed. However, I've had many charges where I didn't get proper distancing when starting facing/at a standstill and one or two units go too far ahead or behind. I think it's more they have to be together; generally, if you charge from a distance, regardless of whether standing still or moving, they'll sort themselves out. Never failed.

Also, on another note... Flying 2m is kinda stupid. xD When you think about, when you get charged, you're going to get pushed into the ground because the lances will be pointed downward in order to meet the infantry, which can be pretty useful. Alright, so you have the person, if not dead, stuck on the ground. You have lots of big warhorses. They keep moving forward. The person gets clobbered with hooves and hundreds of pounds of weight from the rider and horse combined, and will probably be injured badly.

[Skyline Pete]

My understanding of the unit cohesion problem was due to the fact that Med2 has the new animation system which Rome didn't.

I don't like how quickly units can rout in either game though.

[Pyrebound]

I think in RTW the battles were bit too fast. Everything died too fast. Especially how generals bodyguard could slaughter hundreds of hastatis and principles until they got killed.

[pwijnands]

I find units in Medieval 2 don't rout fast enough. Just the other day I was taking the walls with dismounted Hasham against peasants. The peasants had no hope of winning but fought (unsupported, no proper general) until they had about 20% or so soldiers left. Militias tend to fight till they have about 10 troops left. Only if you use fear weapons like muskets do enemies rout quickly.

[Rodrico Stak]

I find units in Medieval 2 don't rout fast enough. Just the other day I was taking the walls with dismounted Hasham against peasants. The peasants had no hope of winning but fought (unsupported, no proper general) until they had about 20% or so soldiers left. Militias tend to fight till they have about 10 troops left. Only if you use fear weapons like muskets do enemies rout quickly.

Though I understand your point, I think it makes sense for siege battles only that this happens - they simply have nowhere to run (the town square thing is just ridiculous).

[pwijnands]

I really hate the town square, unless I brought some artillery with me. Artillery works great if they are all bunched up in the centre of the square. But when I don't have any artillery I really hate having to kill of all the defenders. I have to maneuver all my units around the town square manually so I can attack from as much sides as possible. Attacking with all units in a big mass usually results in disasters for me, they all keep shuffling back while the guys in the front have to fight against three to four enemies at once (read: they die).

[Rodrico Stak]

I really hate the town square, unless I brought some artillery with me. Artillery works great if they are all bunched up in the centre of the square. But when I don't have any artillery I really hate having to kill of all the defenders. I have to maneuver all my units around the town square manually so I can attack from as much sides as possible. Attacking with all units in a big mass usually results in disasters for me, they all keep shuffling back while the guys in the front have to fight against three to four enemies at once (read: they die).

Yeah, its really annoying when that happens. Its like suddenly they all go "we're fighting in the town square - loose formation immediately!"

[Francebunkerer]

I liked the archery better in Rome. Until they reduced it to uselessness. And useless it still is in Medieval 2.
Both Medieval 2 and Rome have their problems and I'd consider them equally good. What Medieval screwed up, it compensated in marvellous new features and shiny graphics.

[Snizel]

I agree about the town square annoyance.

One thing i hate about siege battles is when the beaten enemy routs to the town square then charges back to my massive forces entering the city only to realize the reason they fled in the first place then re-rout.

And the worst thing is when my men hold the town square and are fighting the defenders who suddenly rout INTO my men's ranks just to get to the town square. Seems pointless cause none of them ever make it through.

[Skyline Pete]

Archery in Medieval 2 is fine. Just learn to line your targets up properly.

1 Set of archers on the edge of a town square will annihilate those units in the middle.

Unfortunately it also usually results in your generals getting dread points because it's a tightarse thing to do.