Honor.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

I was arguing with someone recently over the Concept of Honor, and so i was inspired to make this topic.


I believe that since honor is subjective, and since What determines one as 'Honourable' shifts now ans has shifted in the past, That there is no such thing as an honorable person and no such thing as honor. What does honor stem from ? Virtue, Courage, belief, fairness, etc. All of these things are things which we perceive, and they change over time. Thusly, You can't really 'Have' virtue, you can only be deemed virtuous by others based on your actions (More specifically the views on your actions by others) As well as the current prejudices and morals that come with the time and place. One day, shooting at someone in New jersey because of what he said about you would be considered honorable, at least to the person doing the shooting. However others would be disgusted by the act. Now, how can either one of them say that the other is without honor ? They both acted out of moral principle, but they're principles differed and thus they're belief on what is honorable differed. It's a completely subjective thing, no one can say who has it and who does not. That is why i believe that honor does not exist.

Now, your opinions ?

[Ragabash]

For me; honour equals to going by the "rules", in almost what ever consept (society, war, etc). It certainly isn't subjectional, neither it is a natural ability, but a learnt skill.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

For me; honour equals to going by the "rules", in almost what ever consept (society, war, etc). It certainly isn't natural ability but a skill.

But is that really honor ? More importantly is that even moral ? Rules can be unjust, morality has conflicted with legality alot throughout the course of history.

[Ragabash]

But is that really honor ? More importantly is that even moral ? Rules can be unjust, morality has conflicted with legality alot throughout the course of history.

If the rules vary, so must the actual honour. And I did not mean the laws, but rules created by the society and cultural innovations. That we either accept, or not, these rules in our everyday lives, and global world is a whole another question.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

If the rules vary, so must the actual honour. And I did not mean the laws, but rules created by the society and cultural innovations.

But thats why honor doesn't really exist. It's completely subjective, you can say 'this is honorable' but someone else in 10 years can view the exact same action and say 'this is dis-honourable.'

[Ragabash]

But thats why honor doesn't really exist. It's completely subjective, you can say 'this is honorable' but someone else in 10 years can view the exact same action and say 'this is dis-honourable.'

Of course. But that same "action", that is now conisdered as dishonourable, has been at some point honourable.

As I said; the society and cultural innovations determine what is honourful, not the action, or how we research the matter in our history books.

[Maverick]

I was arguing with someone recently over the Concept of Honor, and so i was inspired to make this topic.


I believe that since honor is subjective, and since What determines one as 'Honourable' shifts now ans has shifted in the past, That there is no such thing as an honorable person and no such thing as honor. What does honor stem from ? Virtue, Courage, belief, fairness, etc. All of these things are things which we perceive, and they change over time. Thusly, You can't really 'Have' virtue, you can only be deemed virtuous by others based on your actions (More specifically the views on your actions by others) As well as the current prejudices and morals that come with the time and place. One day, shooting at someone in New jersey because of what he said about you would be considered honorable, at least to the person doing the shooting. However others would be disgusted by the act. Now, how can either one of them say that the other is without honor ? They both acted out of moral principle, but they're principles differed and thus they're belief on what is honorable differed. It's a completely subjective thing, no one can say who has it and who does not. That is why i believe that honor does not exist.

Now, your opinions ?

Interesting post. I would say, however that honour is at least inter-subjective in that we can for the most part agree on what constitutes an horoable person. I think the disparity is mainly on how we defend that honor, as you said some people will kill another person for an insult but someone else might just get into a fight etc. and still sufficiently defend their honor. It's definitely personal experience that determines where you draw that line but on the whole I think most people can agree that to defend your honor you have to defend yours and your family's dignity, virtue, politics, property and religious faith etc.

I.e in 1804 Vice President Aaron Burr Jr. challenged then Secretary of State Alexander Hamilton to a duel for a percieved insult, which Hamilton denied. Hamilton missed Burr, some argued on purpose but Burr shot straight and hit Hamilton in the midsection and mortally wounded the patriot. I'm certain that this pissing contest could have been avoided but at the same time I admire the risk these men took to defend their personal honor.

Whatever honor is, the most successful men in history had it in spades, probably because honor is eternal, men who die with honor are rembered and celebrated and their ancestor's hearts swell with pride when they talk about them.

It's hard, I mean I realize how Hamilton needlessly died but at the same time as a man I have a lot of respect for him and admire his scruples.

[Ummon]

In absolute, honour is the ability to be constantly witness to one's actions, and act in front of others as one does act in front of himself. Therefore, it never changes.

[Jubal_Barca]

Honour is to my mind simply (often altruisitcally) defending what is important to you. I regard my integrity, my family, my home and the welfare of innocent people around me to be highly important, so defending these gains me honour and failure to defend them is a slight on my honour.

[boofhead]

"Honour" is a word I have rarely ever used, but to me it basically means keeping your word, keeping an oath. Some are spoken, like promises or marriage vows or court oaths, but others are unspoken, like protecting and teaching your children, the elderly, being honest and hard-working with your employer etc. What is lost when you break such mores is something intangible, but nevertheless something real. Your social standing.

So pretty much to me honour is keeping my end of the bargain when it comes to social contracts, whether formal or informal.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

honor does not exist In my opinion.

Douglas MacArthur had a little something to say about this.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

Also, alot lot of you guy's are giving your own personal definitions of honor, but is anyone willing to argue wether it truly exists or not ?

Let me save you the time of watching the video I posted by quoting it.

The unbelievers will say they are but words, but a slogan, but a flamboyant phrase. Every pedant, every demagogue, every cynic, every hypocrite, every troublemaker, and I am sorry to say, some others of an entirely different character, will try to downgrade them even to the extent of mockery and ridicule.

In my opinion it does exist, but how the hell would you disprove it?

[Ehre]

well fine then if your gonna drag this out so much, what is honor other then a porpose for something to be done, it is subjective becasue it is believed in just like faith, justice, courage, pretty much all of the words ever used to describe someone heroic. And if honor is "subjective" and its "all in your mind"
then i have a question do you believe in justice, wisdom, courage, the fact that someone can do what is considered "right". all of these are subjective according to you including religion, and pretty much anything that is non tangeable (doesnt have a physical manifestation) is fake.
So according to the way you speak, there is no love, honor, dignity, pride, knowledge, skill, ability, justice, wisdom, religion, faith, a correct determination of right and wrong, and innumerable other things.
becase these don't "exist" by the standards that you describe.

And like i have said before if someone doesn't know what it is to feel or experience any of these things, then they won't really be able to understand that something like it can exixt.

Like people who have never known love and don't believe that it is real.
And people who don't have anything to be prideful of, don't think that there is actual pride.

and ill write more after i get to sleep

[boofhead]

I think a person could be respected but not honoured simultaneously. A master criminal, who is untouchable and has power could be "respected" by all law-abiding people in his society because of various reasons, influence and fear being the most prominent. I am sure Saddam was "respected" for his power even by his enemies in Iraq, but certainly not honoured.

It irks me to say so, but I respect Osama bin Laden for his apparent dignity. And yet I despise him. So perhaps to me the words are not synonyms.

If "respect within ones own recognized group, and regarding communally recognized positive behaviours" was the qualification made, then perhaps the words could be classed as synonyms.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

I think a person could be respected but not honoured simultaneously. A master criminal, who is untouchable and has power could be "respected" by all law-abiding people in his society because of various reasons, influence and fear being the most prominent. I am sure Saddam was "respected" for his power even by his enemies in Iraq, but certainly not honoured.

It irks me to say so, but I respect Osama bin Laden for his apparent dignity. And yet I despise him. So perhaps to me the words are not synonyms.

If "respect within ones own recognized group, and regarding communally recognized positive behaviours" was the qualification made, then perhaps the words could be classed as synonyms.

Well i would say that there are different kinds of respect, earned for different reasons. While We can respect Osama for being able to turn himself into a sort of messiah against the U.S., we hate him for his extremism. Which is a different kind of respect then the respect we give someone like say, mother Teresa.

What's the point? All this is is someone trying to force others to change their beliefs becasue he thinks that his way of thinking is better. Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus is just trying to prove the dis-existence of honor because he doesn't have any to realize that this is completely pointless. Nothing has been gained from this conversation, becaseu no matter what anyone says i still will believe that honor exists, which is the only level on wheich it does exist, in the hearts and minds of the ones who chose to believe it.

So Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus has his beliefs, noone cares.
I have my beliefs, also noone cares.
Boofhead, he has his beliefs, again NOONE CARES.

all this is it to try to get people to doubt their beliefs. There is no point. And half of the stuff Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus has said has just proved the fact that he believes differently then other people do. SO WHAT.
I am seriously getting sick and tired of trying to go through froum pages and seeing something that might be a conversation about something that i agree upon and seeing bull debates like this.
Grow up, find something better to do, and learn that noone really cares about you. You are 1 person in a world of over 9.6BILLION. Just in case you don't realize what that number means. It means your pretty insignificant, and what you think doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things becasue the majority of that 9.6billion believe in honor in some way.
So shut up, and work on trying to make it so that you matter before you start acting like you do.


And don't give me any of that "Well with what you say, you don't matter either." bull. I know I don't matter, thats why I build and invent things, so that someday. I WILL MATTER.

Let me save you the time of watching the video I posted by quoting it.



In my opinion it does exist, but how the hell would you disprove it?

How the hell would you prove it ?

Also, that quote is a strawman. He argues what i intend to do, and nothing else.

[Ehre]

What's the point? All this is is someone trying to force others to change their beliefs because he thinks that his way of thinking is better. Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus is just trying to prove the dis-existence of honor because he doesn't have any to realize that this is completely pointless. Nothing has been gained from this conversation, because no matter what anyone says i still will believe that honor exists, which is the only level on which it does exist, in the hearts and minds of the ones who chose to believe it.

So Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus has his beliefs, noone cares.
I have my beliefs, also noone cares.
Boofhead, he has his beliefs, again NOONE CARES.

all this is it to try to get people to doubt their beliefs. There is no point. And half of the stuff Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus has said has just proved the fact that he believes differently then other people do. SO WHAT.
I am seriously getting sick and tired of trying to go through forum pages and seeing something that might be a conversation about something that I agree upon and seeing bull debates like this.
You are 1 person in a world of over 9.6BILLION. Just in case you don't realize what that number means. It means that this doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things because the majority of that 9.6billion believe in honor in some way..

And don't give me any of that "Well with what you say, you don't matter either." bull. I know I don't matter, thats why I build and invent things, so that someday. I WILL MATTER.

[boofhead]

What's the point? All this is is someone trying to force others to change their beliefs becasue he thinks that his way of thinking is better. Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus is just trying to prove the dis-existence of honor because he doesn't have any to realize that this is completely pointless. Nothing has been gained from this conversation, becaseu no matter what anyone says i still will believe that honor exists, which is the only level on wheich it does exist, in the hearts and minds of the ones who chose to believe it.

If it's pointless to post and share ideas, as you say, then why bother? Why post an opinion in an opinion forum at all? And the hope of changing someones belief is a pretty poor motive for posting. It is unlikely to happen. Rather I would suggest people post to *practice using logic and *share ideas.

So Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus has his beliefs, noone cares.
I have my beliefs, also noone cares.
Boofhead, he has his beliefs, again NOONE CARES.

You're in the wrong place, buddy.

all this is it to try to get people to doubt their beliefs. There is no point. And half of the stuff Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus has said has just proved the fact that he believes differently then other people do. SO WHAT.
I am seriously getting sick and tired of trying to go through froum pages and seeing something that might be a conversation about something that i agree upon and seeing bull debates like this.

Again, you are in the wrong place. Go and join the Nick Jr. club, seriously.

Grow up, find something better to do, and learn that noone really cares about you. You are 1 person in a world of over 9.6BILLION. Just in case you don't realize what that number means. It means your pretty insignificant, and what you think doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things becasue the majority of that 9.6billion believe in honor in some way.
So shut up, and work on trying to make it so that you matter before you start acting like you do.

People do love "insignificant" and "little" people. And in the grand scheme of things if you can't handle an opposing view without spitting the bit and being generally abusive, then why not find somewhere where everybody agrees with you.....like....oh, I don't know......in your imagination.

And don't give me any of that "Well with what you say, you don't matter either." bull. I know I don't matter, thats why I build and invent things, so that someday. I WILL MATTER.

Congratulations.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

He also created 3 billion people in the world that don't exist.

[humvee2800]

In many ways it is universal, there are variations but almost anywhere you go honourable traits principally will be the same.

And to the guy who said Stalin made russia a economic power house..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You are talking about the guy who Ruined his farming industry by collectivising them.

[iudas]

Honour is morality (maybe in a stricter sense). Therefore it is subjective.