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  1. #1

    Default Spartan Preview

    OK - place to start work on the preview. I'll put in renders here for the moment although it might be nice to show these in addition to some in battle shots.

    Keravnos, maybe you'd like to start gathering your preview text thoughts here...

    Akontistai


    Slingers:


    Archers


    Thureophoroi (needs skinning by AE)

    Thorakitai (needs skinning by AE)

    Hypomenoies


    Skiritai


    Ekdromoi hoplitai


    Marine



    Hoplite


    Perioikoi phalangites (needs skinning by AE)


    Heavy phalangites


    Merc hoplite


    Promachoi


    Light hippeis


    Tarantine cavalry


    Xenophon heavy cavalry (or whatever we're calling them)


    General's guard


    Pipe player


    Mystic


    General
    Last edited by tone; December 30, 2007 at 10:51 PM.


    Under patronage of Spirit of Rob; Patron of Century X, Pacco, Cherryfunk, Leif Erikson.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    Keravnos, should the Skiritai swords be covered in the carbon dusting? It seems to me that at night iron would reflect a lot more light than bronze shields. It would also be more indicative of an attack probably.
    RIP Calvin, you won't be forgotten.

  3. #3
    DR. Hobo. PHD.'s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    sorry for being inactive guys, ive been very busy with the holidays and famly, but ill try to get these done asap!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    This is a great place to start placing the descriptions then...

    This is a WIP.

    -to be updated regularly-

    Perioikoi Skiritai (spartan elite swordmen),

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Skiritai were arcadian perioikoi, but were the most trusted among all the perioikoi of Sparta. Their honorary position in the battleline right next to the Spartans and their bravery in their missions means that they were elevated to a higher status than even some native Spartan units, as Spartans above all treasured bravery and prowess in battle. They are equipped with a shortened version of the pilos helmet, and a leather or felt cup underneath to soften the blow on the head, should the helmet be struck. They wear an “exomis” variation of the “chiton”, which leaves the right shoulder free for sword or spear movement. This was worn by laborers, but was popularized in between the battle of Aigos Potamoi 404 BCE and Battle of Leuktra 371 BCE, when most armies dropped all defensive armament but for the shield and helmet. Later on, most troops resumed wearing armor for the body, but Skiritai, due to the nature of their mission, probably remained in that “exomis outfit”. They are armed with a long xiphos sword, as a spear would definitely prove unwieldy in close quarter fighting. It is slung inside their shield for easy reach. They are also equipped with the Spartan shortsword, in case they lose their sword in the heat of the battle, and it wouldn’tt be easy for them to find their sword in the dark. Their shield is dark and has some bronze pins on to cover their Mora emblem an “Ierax” or hawk. They would also be covered in carbon dust so that they would be less visible, during their mission. They set up a perimeter guard around the round shaped Spartan camp, and stood guard during the night. Skiritai while a geographical term initially, it signified a way of fighting and Perioikoi from other towns too were admitted in the Skiritai units. Famous in the battle field for being the first to fight and the last to leave the field. They are the only ones among their Perioikoi troops who were allowed to have long beard and hair on campaign, thus making them indistinguishable from other Spartans, even if Spartans they weren't.

    Historically Perioikoi Skiritai were elite specialized troops of the Spartans. They were night fighting troops be they night guards or night raiders. Their most astounding achievement was the assassination of the brothers of Xerxes at Thermopylae according to Diodoros of Sicily. He narrates their story like this. During the second day of the conflict at Thermopylae, Leonidas is informed in the late evening from a Persian fugitive, Tyrrastias from Kyme, the movements of the immortals under command of the Hydarnes in the mountain pass of Anopaia and decides a night raid with Xerxes himself as the target. The Persians, obvioulsly worn out by the their continuous attacks of the battleline, don’t notice a unit of skiritai night raiders, who penetrate in the royal tent slaughtering everyone they find. Xerxes however wasn’t in the tent at the time so he escapes. This wasn’t the case though for his brothers, Abrokomes and Hyperanthes. After killing them the skiritai were slain themselves as the immortals overwhelmed them. Herodotos considers that the brothers of Xerxes died fighting Leonidas in the final stand of the Spartans in the hill. That, however is false as the Persian Kings’ brothers wouldn’t fight at the first line according to their customs, and of course we know that the last Spartans of Thermopylae died from the massive arrow shots, not direct action. Thus, Xerxes’ brothers are more likely to have been killed at a Skiritai night ops than anything else. They kept on fighting for the Spartans and they are mentioned in the first battle of Mantineia, when they along with the freed Helots Brasideioi were given the left flank (with Spartans and Tegeates allies holding the right). In that battle they were the bait as they faced the elite troops of the Spartans’ enemies. They fled eventually, but after buying the right flank enough time to dismantle their opposing force and then defeating the rest of the enemies in detail. Post Mantineia, 600 skiritai they were used as hamippoi (literally, those between the horses), meaning going in battle along with the horsemen, and gutting the enemy horses with their swords when the two opposing cavalry forces would clash. Xeonphon mentions that Spartans were weary of usin the Skiritai in battle, due to their fighting skills and were very cautious in their use, not throwing them away like lower class troops. Skiritai were dismantled when Thebans stripped the Spartans of their Arcadian holdings post 371, but Spartans reclaimed Skirititai land and would definitely recreate that elite night-op force.



    How does that look? Is it too big?

    Heilotai Akontistai

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Heilotai Akontistai were the bread and butter of Spartan skirmish troops. They wouldn’t stand in battle, but they would certainly pepper the enemy with spears. Akontistai would form up in loose order 2-4 lines deep. Nearing the enemy up until range they would pepper the enemy with the 3-8 javs they carried. They were armed with a small pelte shield and a small knife for self defense. Helots weren’t free. They weren’t slaves either, not in the sense that they would be in other Hellenic poleis. They had many rights, much more then other greek city slaves. “Community slaves” is a term that has been used for them. Another, according to Polydeukes, is that they were those in between free men and slaves. They had the opportunity to accumulate fortune (much like Romani slaves), because of their set 50% of their crops that they would give to the Spartans. This is why in the reign of Kleomenes (224 BCE), thousands of them could buy their freedom, when such an option was offered by a Sparta in desperate need of funds. Still, thousands more remained helots. Initially helots were used as baggage carriers or weapon bearers (they carried the offensive and defensive equipment of the Spartans in battle). It seems the weapons they carried in battle were their hunting gear, be it spears or slings. According to Herodotos, for every Spartan who took part in a campaign, there would be 7 helots accompanying them.

    Historically when Spartans fought at Plataiae, they brought along the grand total of all fighting helots, about 35.000 of which, most of which would be akontistai. They fought against the Persian cavalry along with the Spartans and their assistance in the outcome of battle is not to be underestimated. Helots were situated mainly in the valley of Messinia (stenyklaros) and the balley of Eurotas river in Sparta itself. In those very fertile ground would the Sparans have their lands which the Helots would cultivate. Most hillside lands and mountain villages were Perioikoi domain. There is evidence to suggest that each Spartan would “loan out” the helots to the other, when certain produce needed to be harvested. Helots were under constant threat, either dying from hard work, or from the “Krypteia” secret police which assassinated the best of them. Even the Spartan state regularly declared war against them, so as to justify mass helot killings. There were many mothaxes around, such as Lysandros famous Spartan general who won the Pelloponesean war., (Mothax=child with Spartan father and helot mother), and some historians have even gone to suggest that some of the helot killings were to secure helot women. Helots would have none of this and fought very hard the Spartans at every chance they would get, and 3 Messenian wars or rebellions were fought. It was the Thebeans, however, who managed to set them free, after their victory at Leuktra at 371. Messenian helots were freed as Helots from Sparta remained in their chains, up until just prior to Romani conquest.




    Heilotai Sphendonetai,

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    Sphendonetai, or slingers were one of the few tasks that Helots were trusted with in warfare. After the Akontistai it was the bigger type of “psiloi” missile skirmishers type in the greek battle field and Spartan too. Equipped with the “sphendone” sling, a leather strip with a bigger, flattened part in its middle in which the sling would be placed. From there on it would be slung at the enemy. The old clay missiles had been replaced by molybdenum ones, whose weight increased from 30 gr. to 80 gr after Phillipos B. A good slinger could hit his target from 150 meters away. He needn’t kill the target outright. The bent helmet and the great concussion which would cause massive internal hemorrhage on the brain would do that.
    Spartans were in the top of a pyramid. Small in number but terrible in their fighting skills. Lower down that pyramid were the middle class of Perioikoi, free but with limited rights. The base of the pyramid however, and the reason Sparta existed as a state were the Helots. On top of their backs was Sparta built. They were a particular case of slaves. They had many rights, much more then other greek city slaves. “Community slaves” is a term that has been used for them. Another, according to Polydeukes, is that they were those in between free men and slaves. However they must have been one of the most massive slave classes in history, in relation to their ruling class at least. In the time of Sparta’s greatest peak Helots must have numbered near to 100.000 (women and children included). At that same time Spartan “homoioi” citizens (basically only Homoioi would be called Spartans) were about 5.000 fighting men at about 600 BCE. Their numbers kept diminishing until the time of Kleomenes’ reforms at 224 BCE, only 100 spartans existed, who controlled almost all the lands of Sparta.

    While it is true that a lot of Helots bought their freedom in the period right up to 216 (In Kleomenes reforms’ many thousands of helots bought their freedom), those were incorporated in Spartan or Perioikoi troops, they weren’t helots anymore. Helots would only fight with their hunting equipment, aka spears and slings. Not the best of slingers, as the slingers of Corsica and Rhodes and Pisidia are many times better than them. Still, they will shoot their slings at the enemy phalanxes, with devastating results. Spartans, for all their faults would allow them to amass property, and even award some of them liberty for their bravery in battle. Even though that number was never big, it did happen. Spartans, obsessed as they were with bravery and war, this was the one commodity they valued among all else. They must have fought in Plataiae, and even more so in skirmishes of the Peloponnesian war against the Iphikratides hoplites of Athenians who destroyed a Spartan company, mainly by using javelins, slngshots and outnumbering them 6 to 1. Thus the slingers would accompany most hoplitic phalanxes as a way to protect them from missile fire. Most of them were freed after the battle of Leuktra when the Koinon of Messenion was formed. 6.000 of them took up arms voluntary to defend against the Boetian invasion. Many others, though, especially those in Lakonia, Sparta’s environs, remained helots until the end of Spartan’s independent state existence.



    Perioikoi Toxotai,

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    Spartans despised archery. They hated it so much in fact that a dying Spartan is depicted by Plutarch in his work “Ethica” (=of morals) as complaining that he dies because of an arrow shot by an effeminate archer. Archery and cavalry however, were the two areas the Spartans were severely lacking in. Kretan archers however, were respected warriors and were considered an integral part of Spartan army, They fought alongside the Spartans ever since King Theopompos in the 8th century BCE. Sources don’t mention the existence of Cretan merc archers at Sparta, but they must have serveed with Spartan army throughout its history. They were the best tutors to train the Perioikoi Toxotai force and in fact this force was formed and equipped, exactly like Cretan archers. An evolved boetian helmet, a “spolas” leather or woolen subarmalis or “thoromachos” as it would be called, and on top of that, an ochre linothorax. Linothorax wasn’t white, it was bleached to be white. They are equipped with a composite bow, an oriental influence brought over by the conquering armies of Megas Alexandros, and their training was vigorous, as to quote a medieval English saying “To train an archer you must start from his grandfather”. Unique among archers they carried a long xiphos and a small buckler to defend themselves should they be attacked. While able to defend themselves, they should be defended well as they too valuable to waste in hand to hand combat. Due to the hardship of training and the time it took to raise them, Metoikoi toxotai would be an elite archery unit, to be recruited in the higher tiers of Spartan barracks. Their lethality in battle, however, more than justifies all expenses associated with them.

    Historically, Spartans after the loss at Sphakteria, where Athenian Epibatai(=marines) swamped the beachfront defenses and moved inland, harassing the Spartans with missile fire whenever they attempted to come to grips with the Athenian hoplites. It has been theorised that the Athenian force had a big number of peltasts alongside it, or even Kimmerioi toxotai (scythian archers), who would pepper the Spartan force with arrows. In the end, 400 hoplites proved no match for 2000 archers and 8000 lighly armed rowers from the fleet. Whenever the hoplites would try to assault the Athenians, those 2000 archers would break up run in units of 200 men and run around while the other archer units would unleash their arrows at the Spartan’s flanks. It was a hopeless battle. It was also a wake up call for Sparta which realised the importance of light cavalry (to be able to break up toxotai and akontistai formations) and a proffesional archery force to fight against archers. Kretan archers were recruited to fight as mercenaries but also to train the new Metoikoi toxotai elite archer force. Recruited from the most trusted of Perioikoi, they would continue the tradition of Kretan archery, but also be more patriotic then them. Even if Spartans were the absolute overlords of their country, Perioikoi felt they were part of the Spartan heritage too. Thus, even if not as good fighters as the Spartans, they could go up against other cities’ troops easily. As their officers were Spartans, their battle worth would be even higher.



    Perioikoi Thureophoroi

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    Kleomenes’ reforms of 224 BCE, were the greatest chance that Sparta had to reclaim its power. Kleomenes tried his best to re-create the Glory of Sparta. Part of his reforms was the formation of a Thureophoroi force, a heavy peltasts outfit, equipped with a Thureos Celtic/Italian shield, which Sparta was possibly the last Hellenic state to field. As the perioikoi would be quite rich sometimes, their equipment would reflect their status. While not rich enough to field a bronze muscle cuirass, (in truth, few men were able to afford such an armor), they did wear a leather or woolen spolas subarmalis or “thoromachos” and on top of that a bleached white linothorax with some gorgoneion and decorative designs on it. No greaves for them, as they would have to run for their lives when heavier forces or cavalry arrived. They could fight hoplites but not win them. They would too form up in 8 lines or less but were able to shorten their lines, effectively creating a light phallanx. carrying a number of javelins, (4 most of the time). They carry a black shield with a white leopard signifying the Mora recruitment center of Pylos. Pylos was the site of a great Spartan loss in the Pelloponesean war, but also the site where the Perioikoi stood their ground agains the re-emerging Messenian state post 374 BCE. As such with the ressurgence of Sparta, old emblems would be used anew and new warriors with novel weapons and armor would join in the fight to make Sparta great.

    Perioikoi, while not the best troops of Sparta, they certainly were many, and certainly among those who would embrace many of the novelties of war, in direct contrast to the more “set-in-stone” ways of their Spartan overlords. They would become pike phallangitai, thureophoroi, thorakitai, elite archers and tarentine horsemen as the needs of Sparta would differ in time. Diodoros of Sicily and others speak of the 1000 perioikoi who fought along Leonidas in Thermopylae. They were forgotten by history and “spartan-only” theories. Perioikoi thureophoroi, though know their history and are going to prove once again that even if they aren’t Spartans they are Lakedaimonioi, and it is Lakedaimonioi that the dedication in Thermopylae speaks of.



    Perioikoi Thorakitai

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Kleomenes and his reforms of 224 BCE didn’t stop at the creation of Thureophoroi. A heavier force much like them, but with many similarities in equipment was planned like that of the other Diadochoi states. Even if Thorakitai didn’t fight at Selassia, they were deffinitely planned. Machanidas’ time is now, and if the time and finances allow is sure to bring them forth. Thorakitai, evolving from Thureophoroi are equipped with a Thureos Celtic/Italian shield. It is a red clad shield with a white “lambda” signifying the perticular “Λ” that the Perioikoi went to battle with. Even if they were rich enough to be equipped with a bronze muscle cuirass, they chose not to. Instead, on top of the leather or woolen “spolas” subarmalis or “thoromachos” they wore the Celtic chainmail. In fact it was worn and fasted like that of the richest celt heavy swordmen or Principes. Their main difference to the other states’ thorakitai would be the bronze greaves they might wear. Still considered missile troops by many, and in fact they were, carrying a number of javelins, (4 most of the time). It is no wonder why they have been called “immitation legionaires” from that point and up until today. They surely look like it but they are not. They are the heaviest peltasts Hellenic states built which just look like the Romani, as they themselves evolved along the same lines. It is parallel evolution and influence up to a part, but not an all out copy of a Romani princeps.

    Thorakitai, historically were the last ditch attempt for a Greek state to come up with something to fight the Romani with. Thorakitai and their lighter armed brehtren, thureophoroi, much like the peltasts they descended from, can fight in all sorts of terrains, especially so in rough and dangerous terrain. Hoplitic phallanxes and pike phallanxes may defeat them on open ground but on a more uneven terrain, when the phallanxes lose their cohesion they are fair game for the fast moving thorakitai to engage them and in that case their larger shield and greater sword would prevail. In battle of Sellasia, Kleomenes tried to do that same thing. Force the enemy phallanxes into uneven ground and him being on the fortified hilltop, he would face their attacks with his own Periokoi and Spartan phallanxes and force them to flee down with his lighter troops like thureophoroi (or Thorakitai if he would have them) cut them down. Unfortunately for him, treason from his leader of Krypteia (secret police equivalent) and a sudden assault from thraikian and illyrian heavy peltasts drove him into disarray costing him the battle. There was nothing wrong with Thorakitai and his battleplan, though. It is just that it didn’t survive contact with the enemy.



    Mantes Melampodidon (Oracle of Melampodides)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Every battle between hoplitic phalanxes would start in a set way, as would be expected by an all professional army like Spartan was. This was a set procedure, which went somewhat like this. As the two armies were approaching Spartans would stop a few hundred meters before the enemy. Then the mantes would sacrifice a goat in the name of Artemis Agroteras, the virgin godess of the hunt “she who resides in the fields” and at the command of the King started moving forward, as the Auletes would start to play their double flutes, the “diauloi” the hymn in the honour of Kastor. Then the king himself would recite one of the heroic poems of Tyrtaios and the auletes would follow suit with their double flutes. Then all the army in one voice, would start singing as well. Then in marching step (all Spartan tunes were made to be marched on), they started walking towards the enemy. On the armys’ back would be the Mantes and Auletes, both discernible and both persons unharmable by any combatant. When the battle started the Mantes Melampodidon was excused, whereas the auletes would stay on to try to impose some sense of order into chaos through his music, but far away from the battle as he might be killed accidentally.

    According to Lucian, the two snake-dragons symbolize the medical fratra (fraternity) of the Melampodides. Then he goes on to mention their genealogy until an ancestor of theirs called Tissamenos who abandons Boiotoia to join in the Dorians as they descend on Peloponnesos, and settles down in Sparta. Other ancient writers agree that Melampodides had a Theban ancestry but also a connection to the founders of Sparta hence the reason why Spartan Armies draw their military physicians and augurs from them. A black colour on their shield would mean a direct father to son blood line to the first ancestor who settled in Sparta. A red shield (much more common) would signify bond with the brotherhood, mostly by marriage into it. One of the most famous Mantes would be Megistias Melampodidon (from Acarnania). Having married his way into the fratra a long time ago and most respected among his fellow Manteis, he was the one to escort his King Leonidas. He assembled 300 chosen men to take into a place called Hot gates. During the third day (no augur could foretell for more than a day, only oracles could) his prognosis was that this would be the final battle for all. Leonidas then explicitly ordered him to depart to which Megistias refused, only asking that his son be allowed to depart as he was his only descendant. Herodotos goes on to speak of his monument which carries this sign…

    “MNHMA TOΔΕ ΚΛΕΝΟΙΟ ΜΕΓΙΣΤΙΑ ΑΝ ΠΟΤΕ ΜΗΔΟΙ
    ΣΠΕΡΧΕΙΟΝ ΠΟΤΑΜΟΝ ΚΤΕΙΝΑΝ ΑΜΕΙΨΑΜΕΝΟΙ
    ΜΑΝΤΙΟΣ, ΟΣ ΤΟΤΕ ΚΗΡΑΣ ΕΠΕΡΧΟΜΕΝΑΣ ΣΑΦΑ ΕΙΔΩΣ
    ΟΥΚ ΕΤΛΗ ΣΠΑΡΤΗΣ ΗΓΕΜΟΝΑ ΚΑΤΑΛΙΠΕΙΝ”

    … “This monument is for the glorious Megisitias who was killed after the passage of Spercheios’ river by the Medes,
    The Augur who knew his fate very well but still refused to abandon the hegemon of Sparta.”




    Spartiatai Epibatai (Spartan Marines)

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    Marines were used as an autonomous corps in Greek warfare for the first time at the naval tyrrany of Samos. Its ruler, Polykrates (562-522 BCE) according to what is alluded at Herodotos and Thucidides (1.13) was the first to institute a solid marine unit ceasing the practice which existed until then for the hoplites to be put to ships, be called marines, and then taken out if the situations would call for that. By having a solid core of Epibatai marines, a state would be at a big advantage, as at the cramped confines of a wooden oar propelled warship, there isn’t room for any hoplitic shieldwall, or even room to move a spear without hurting someone. In those cramped spaces, the Epibatai by necessity would use their swords primarily, be covered only by their helmets and large argive shields for protection, and wear not a heavy armor like a bronze muscle cuirass or a linothorax but a light quilted chiton. A muscle cuirass would be their undoing if they would fall into the sea, which shouldn’t be considered unlikely. In that event even the worlds’ greatest swimmer can’t swim for long when carrying an extra 25-32 kgs. A linothorax would start to suck water in and would be more heavy by the second, hence a deathrap as well. Or greaves if those were to be worn. So, the Spartiatai Epibatai abandoned all other forms of metal armor protection but for the helmet and the big round aspis argive shield. Equipped with their trusty kopis curved sword they would be entrenched in the small “ikrion proras” or “perithranon” meaning the externally armored sides and bow of the warship from which the marines will attempt to board the enemy ship literally “jump into” it, (eispedesis) as the ship they are on will probably try to ram it at an angle. Its stern would also be heavily armored so much so that some triremes would be called “Kataphraktoi trieireis” or Cataphract triremes. The armored stern made it possible for the Epibatai to defend against enemy navy archers. Spartiatai Epibatai will be recruited at the highest possible barracks outside of Sparta and highest harbor level not because of their battle worth, as there are equally good and possibly cheaper units, but to simulate the fact that it was Sparta on its highest peak which could create them, and that would take time and money. They would be an elite cadre with officers and a small part of its men from Sparta but the big majority will be provided by conquered or allied states and territories. In the Spartan triremes, Epibatai would be Spartans and other Lakedaimonians, the sailors would be Laconian Perioikoi, while the rowers would be Helots. Captains (Trierearchoi) would be Spartans or Perioikoi.

    Historically Sparta had a small but very proud navy. It is often forgot that it contributed 16 ships and crews for even more at Salamis, it was the 5th city in amount of ships given and was commended by that, especially so when Sparta, as most other Pelponnesian cities, kept their armies fortifying in Corinth. Sparta’s proudest naval achievement however was the formation of the Dorian Antiathenean league “synaspismos” meaning joining of shields. At that time the dorian cities of Byzantion, Kyzikos, Rhodos, Lampsakos, Samos, Issos, Knidos and Effesos jointly adopted as an emblem the baby Hercules strangling the snakes which the Godess Hera had unleashed upon him, snakes signifying the poisonous influence of the Athenians. Approximately 180 triremes were built, a much lower number than what the Athenians had but the destruction at Syracuse of the Athenian force did cut it down to size. Admiral Lysandros, who commanded the Spartan fleet and its compliment of Spartan Epibatai refused to fight the bigger Athenian fleet at sea, knowing full well that Athenians were much better sailors. The previous defeat at Oinousai was definitely on his mind. Instead he bid his time, docked waiting for the Athenians to break off. They did. Then Lysandros’ followed them from a distance and as they made landfall and left the ships trying to scavenge/find some food in the surrounding country side, the much outnumbered Spartan Marines landed ashore at Aigos Kephalai capturing and killing most of the 4.000 Athenian Epibatai, forcing Athens to sue for Peace. Sparta was blamed for using Persian money to build that fleet, but it was a common practice at the time. Any fledging Hellenic power could “borrow” money from Persia to fight off its rivals, but then its rivals would ask money as well, which Achaimenid Persia was only too happy to provide, letting those Yuna (Greeks) fight it out amongst themselves. Still the moment of triumph against the Athenians was were the Spartan fleet started to crumble. After Athens was only allowed 12 triremes, Spartan navy was downsized accordingly. The rise of the Thebans put the finishing blow on the Spartan navy at 369 BCE, which was completely abandoned after the defeat by Antipatros at 331 BCE. The final glow of Spartans at sea was at the time of the “Tyrant” Nabis. At 207 BCE he started rebuilding the Navy. He used Laconian Perioikoi again. He created a base of Operations at Gytheio. He then instituted a crack pirate navy( using “lemboi” boats of the “liburna” type) alongside his Kretan allies. He must have used other ships as well, biremes, triremes and specific pirate ships like hemiolies and trihemiolies. He had become such a menace to the surrounding Romani protectorates that once Flaminius fought Sparta at 195 BCE he used naval forces from Rhodes, Pergamon and Roma itself. Nabis defeat meant that he could only keep 2 Lemboi, dismantle his port facilities, and abandon Spartan Navy forever. Still the so called descendants of Lakedaimonian Spartans, Tzakones (from Lakones) kept on their piracy habits up until the middle ages.



    Spartiatai Promachoi (Spartan Elite hoplites)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    When the phalanx was fighting, care was taken that the best men would fight in front. Those would be the best to fight, and first to die, the Promachoi. As they would have to be in the first lines of the hoplitic phalanx, when a phalanx had to turn to face its rear, they still would have to be first. The way Spartans would do that, was so amazing to the other Hellenes that they called it “Lakonike metabole” (Laconic “about face”). The last line would turn 180 degrees and the rest lines would come in front of it in turn. It may sound easy in theory but in practice it was quite hard. In fact only the Spartans were known to be able to perform it, when given enough time. They wear a chalkidian helmet but with a difference. Their cheekguards are shaped as a horned horse. Peculiar as this animal may appear it isn’t exactly so. The horses are to honour the “hippeis” of Sparta, the original highest honorary title that a Spartan could attain (and no relation to present day horsemen called also hippeis). The horns are there to signify the sacrificed rams that “logades” sacrificed before battle. Upon their burning carcases they would take an oath to replace their carcasses with their own should they abandon the line in battle. It is those oaths that 300 “logades” or “oath takers” made prior to leaving with their King long ago for a place called Hot gates. Promachoi honour both with their helmet. Their armor isn’t the bronze metal cuirass but a more nimble linothorax, pteruges to cover their vitals and bronze greaves. Their shield bears the emblem of the Mora of Sparta (recruitment center and military outfit in one), and quite rightly so, for it is only in Sparta that the Promachoi are recruited. If the words “best” are to describe some of the Spartans, those Spartans would be the Promachoi.

    These men would be the Praitorians of Sparta. A Sparta which could successfully expand and flourish wouldn’t amass wealth like the Achaimenid Persian only to be plucked away by an Alexadnros or build massive forums like the Romani for the Vandals to descecrate. Sparta would gather the only one thing it valued. Battle hardened veterans which any potential enemy could try to kill. Promachoi would be those. Veterans of uncountable campaigns, used to fighting in the frontlines as their name says, they are the “human walls” of Sparta. Even if Sparta is walled now, they are considered its honorary walls. It is upon them that Sparta would base its defence. It is upon them that Sparta would depend to be its standard as hopeful kings or family members of its dual monarchy embark on dangerous campaigns to further enhance its glory and territory.



    Spartiates Hegemon (Spartan King)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spartan Hegemones or Kings were according to Aristlotle, “nothing more than hereditary generals” as he writes in his “politika”. In practice there may have been, despite the fact that Kings like Kleomenes A’ and Agesilaos B’ seem to be absolute rulers bending both the Ephors and the Apella (Spartan parliament with very limited powers) to their will. Their institutional and statutory authority however was enormous. They are, according to the historian M. C. Amouretti, “priviledged intervenors between Zeus-protector of Lacedaimon and Master of the Universe and their people. Trustees of the divinations of Apollo who are of outmost interest to Sparta and protected of the Tyndarides, Kastor and Polydeukes, whose twin nature they reproduce throught their twin reign, they are by nature the most able to ensure success in the battlefield”. There were so many Kings to rule the twin monarchy of Sparta, that all kinds of Kings ruled. Traitor ones, like Demaratos who (exiled from Sparta) asked Xerxes to land an expeditionary force in Kythera to be able to threaten the soft underbelly of Sparta. Warrior ones. Even peace loving ones like Archidamos, who tried to first avert then delay Peloponnesian war for as long as humanly possible. The two kings though who define the greatest pinnacle in Sparta’s long history had a common characteristic. They both died in Battle. The first one, Leonidas was third in succession order. He became a King after his first brother passed away and the second one killed in combat. Some historians have claimed that he was directly or indirectly responsible for the death of his brother. His stance at Thermopylae, do not match the attributes of someone who would kill his own brother for power. Such a person wouldn’t hold the line against such an overwhelmingly superior force. The second king, from whose time on Sparta became yet another second rate city state was Kleombrotos. He fought and died trying to keep Thebes from Sparta territory. Later on, it was Spartan kings again who tried to re-establish the institutions which made Sparta Great. Ages who died trying to instigate reforms which Kleomenes B’ managed to actually put in place. Machanidas, now in 216 BCE tries to keep the flame alive. Spartans looked up to their Kings. Their Kings were mostly worth it.

    In reality the leadership abilities of the Spartan King who led the army to battle weren’t of the utmost importance. Since 506 it was set that only one King would lead the Army while the other one would remain in Sparta. During most of its history, Sparta fought in hoplitic phalanx battles in which the scenario was predetermined. A short but brutal skirmish between two bronze shieldwalls would determine the victor. Spartans were at an advantage in such a clash because of their military upbginging and never ending training. As a result, in all levels of command excellent officers led. Thucidides joked that in the Spartan homioi divisions of the army, everyone was a commissioned officer. That’s not to say that the Spartan Kings weren’t good generals. Growing up in Sparta, and going through the Agoge would make one a general, at least a passable one. It is true that Spartan Kings were the only ones who were allowed by Law to not put their children through the Agoge. It is also true that we don’t know of any Spartan King who didn’t undergo Agoge, even when it became an empty word. It was the Spartan Kings who tried to restore Sparta to its old ways, when it had become just another plutocracy. For as long as Sparta had a King, it existed as an entity. When it lost them it became just another city of the Achaian league.


    Last edited by Keravnos; January 12, 2008 at 05:27 PM.
    Go Minerwars Go! A 6DOF game of space mining and shooting. SAKA Co-FC, Koinon Hellenon FC, Epeiros FC. RS Hellenistic Historian K.I.S.S.




  5. #5
    Mulattothrasher's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravnos View Post
    This is a great place to start placing the descriptions then...

    This is a WIP.

    -to be updated regularly-

    Perioikoi Skiritai,

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Skiritai were arcadian perioikoi, but were the most trusted among all the perioikoi of Sparta. Their honorary position in the battleline right next to the Spartans and their bravery in their missions means that they were elevated to a higher status than even some native Spartan units, as Spartans above all treasured bravery and prowess in battle. They are equipped with a shortened version of the pilos helmet, and a leather or felt cup underneath to soften the blow on the head, should the helmet be struck. They wear an “exomis” variation of the “chiton”, which leaves the right shoulder free for sword or spear movement. This was worn by laborers, but was popularized in between the battle of Aigos Potamoi 404 BCE and Battle of Leuktra 371 BCE, when most armies dropped all defensive armament but for the shield and helmet. Later on, most troops resumed wearing armor for the body, but Skiritai, due to the nature of their mission, probably remained in that “exomis outfit”. They are armed with a long xiphos sword, as a spear would definitely prove unwieldy in close quarter fighting. It is slung inside their shield for easy reach. They are also equipped with the Spartan shortsword, in case they lose their sword in the heat of the battle, and it wouldn’tt be easy for them to find their sword in the dark. Their shield is dark and has some bronze pins on to cover their Mora emblem an “Ierax” or hawk. They would also be covered in carbon dust so that they would be less visible, during their mission. They set up a perimeter guard around the round shaped Spartan camp, and stood guard during the night. Skiritai while a geographical term initially, it signified a way of fighting and Perioikoi from other towns too were admitted in the Skiritai units. Famous in the battle field for being the first to fight and the last to leave the field. They are the only ones among their Perioikoi troops who were allowed to have long beard and hair on campaign, thus making them indistinguishable from other Spartans, even if Spartans they weren't.

    Historically Perioikoi Skiritai were elite specialized troops of the Spartans. They were night fighting troops be they night guards or night raiders. Their most astounding achievement was the assassination of the brothers of Xerxes at Thermopylae according to Diodoros of Sicily. He narrates their story like this. During the second day of the conflict at Thermopylae, Leonidas is informed in the late evening from a Persian fugitive, Tyrrastias from Kyme, the movements of the immortals under command of the Hydarnes in the mountain pass of Anopaia and decides a night raid with Xerxes himself as the target. The Persians, obvioulsly worn out by the their continuous attacks of the battleline, don’t notice a unit of skiritai night raiders, who penetrate in the royal tent slaughtering everyone they find. Xerxes however wasn’t in the tent at the time so he escapes. This wasn’t the case though for his brothers, Abrokomes and Hyperanthes. After killing them the skiritai were slain themselves as the immortals overwhelmed them. Herodotos considers that the brothers of Xerxes died fighting Leonidas in the final stand of the Spartans in the hill. That, however is false as the Persian Kings’ brothers wouldn’t fight at the first line according to their customs, and of course we know that the last Spartans of Thermopylae died from the massive arrow shots, not direct action. Thus, Xerxes’ brothers are more likely to have been killed at a Skiritai night ops than anything else. They kept on fighting for the Spartans and they are mentioned in the first battle of Mantineia, when they along with the freed Helots Brasideioi were given the left flank (with Spartans and Tegeates allies holding the right). In that battle they were the bait as they faced the elite troops of the Spartans’ enemies. They fled eventually, but after buying the right flank enough time to dismantle their opposing force and then defeating the rest of the enemies in detail. Post Mantineia, 600 skiritai they were used as hamippoi (literally, those between the horses), meaning going in battle along with the horsemen, and gutting the enemy horses when the two opposing cavalry forces would clash. Xeonphon mentions that Spartans were weary of usin the Skiritai in battle, due to their fighting skills and were very cautious in their use, not throwing them away like lower class troops. Skiritai were dismantled when Thebans stripped the Spartans of their Arcadian holdings post 371, but Spartans reclaimed Skirititai land and would definitely recreate that elite night-op force.



    How does that look? Is it too big?

    Heilotai Akontistai

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Helots weren’t free. They weren’t slaves either, not in the sense that they would be in other Hellenic poleis. They had many rights, much more then other greek city slaves. “Community slaves” is a term that has been used for them. Another, according to Polydeukes, is that they were those in between free men and slaves. They had the opportunity to accumulate fortune (much like Romani slaves), because of their set 50% of their crops that they would give to the Spartans. This is why in the reign of Kleomenes (224 BCE), thousands of them could buy their freedom, when such an option was offered by a Sparta in desperate need of funds. Still, thousands more remained helots. Initially helots were used as baggage carriers or weapon bearers (they carried the offensive and defensive equipment of the Spartans in battle). It seems the weapons they carried in battle were their hunting gear, be it spears or slings. According to Herodotos, for every Spartan who took part in a campaign, there would be 7 helots accompanying them.

    Historically akontistai were the bread and butter of skirmish troops. They wouldn’t stand in battle, but they would certainly pepper the enemy with spears. When Spartans fought at Plataiae, they brought along the grand total of all fighting helots, about 35.000 of which, most of which would be akontistai. 10.000 were the Perioikoi and only 5000 or less were the Spartans. They fought against the Persian cavalry along with the Spartans and their assistance in the outcome of battle is not to be underestimated. Helots were situated mainly in the valley of Messinia (stenyklaros) and the balley of Eurotas river in Sparta itself. In those very fertile ground would the Sparans have their lands which the Helots would cultivate. Most hillside lands and mountain villages were Perioikoi domain. There is evidence to suggest that each Spartan would “loan out” the helots to the other, when certain produce needed to be harvested. Helots were under constant threat, either dying from hard work, or from the “Krypteia” secret police which assassinated the best of them. Even the Spartan state regularly declared war against them, so as to justify mass helot killings. There were many mothaxes around, such as Lysandros famous Spartan general who won the Pelloponesean war., (Mothax=child with Spartan father and helot mother), and some historians have even gone to suggest that some of the helot killings were to secure helot women. Helots would have none of this and fought very hard the Spartans at every chance they would get, and 3 Messenian wars or rebellions were fought. It was the Thebeans, however, who managed to set them free, after their victory at Leuktra at 371. Messenian helots were freed as Helots from Sparta remained in their chains, up until just prior to Romani conquest.



    Heilotai Sphendonetai,

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spartans were in the top of a pyramid. Small in number but terrible in their fighting skills. Lower down that pyramid were the middle class of Perioikoi, free but with limited rights. The base of the pyramid however, and the reason Sparta existed as a state were the Helots. On top of their backs was Sparta built. They were a particular case of slaves. They had many rights, much more then other greek city slaves. “Community slaves” is a term that has been used for them. Another, according to Polydeukes, is that they were those in between free men and slaves. However they must have been one of the most massive slave classes in history, in relation to their ruling class at least. In the time of Sparta’s greatest peak Helots must have numbered near to 100.000 (women and children included). At that same time Spartan “homoioi” citizens (basically only Homoioi would be called Spartans) were about 5.000 fighting men at about 600 BCE. Their numbers kept diminishing until the time of Kleomenes’ reforms at 224 BCE, only 100 spartans existed, who controlled almost all the lands of Sparta.

    Sphendonetai, or slingers were one of the few tasks that Helots were trusted with in warfare. While it is true that a lot of Helots bought their freedom in the period right up to 216 (In Kleomenes reforms’ many thousands of helots bought their freedom), those were incorporated in Spartan or Perioikoi troops, they weren’t helots anymore. Helots would only fight with their hunting equipment, aka spears and slings. Not the best of slingers, as the slingers of Corsica and Rhodes and Pisidia are many times better than them. Still, they will shoot their slings at the enemy phalanxes, with devastating results. Spartans, for all their faults would allow them to amass property, and even award some of them liberty for their bravery in battle. Even though that number was never big, it did happen. Spartans, obsessed as they were with bravery and war, this was the one commodity they valued among all else. They must have fought in Plataiae, and even more so in skirmishes of the Peloponnesian war against the Iphikratides hoplites of Athenians who destroyed a Spartan company, mainly by slngshots. Thus the slingers would accompany most hoplitic phalanxes as a way to protect them from missile fire. Most of them were freed after the battle of Leuktra when the Koinon of Messenion was formed. Many, though, especially those in Lakonia, Sparta’s environs, remained helots until the end of Spartan’s independent state existence.


    Perioikoi Toxotai,

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spartans despised archery. They hated it so much in fact that a dying Spartan is depicted by Plutarch in his work “Ethica” (=of morals) as complaining that he dies because of an arrow shot by an effeminate archer. Archery and cavalry however, were the two areas the Spartans were severely lacking in. Kretan archers however, were respected warriors and were considered an integral part of Spartan army, They fought alongside the Spartans ever since King Theopompos in the 8th century BCE. Sources don’t mention the existence of Cretan merc archers at Sparta, but they must have serveed with Spartan army throughout its history. They were the best tutors to train the Perioikoi Toxotai force and in fact this force was formed and equipped, exactly like Cretan archers. An evolved boetian helmet, a “spolas” leather or woolen subarmalis or “thoromachos” as it would be called, and on top of that, an ochre linothorax. Linothorax wasn’t white, it was bleached to be white. They are equipped with a composite bow, an oriental influence brought over by the conquering armies of Megas Alexandros, and their training was vigorous, as to quote a medieval English saying “To train an archer you must start from his grandfather”. Unique among archers they carried a long xiphos and a small buckler to defend themselves should they be attacked. While able to defend themselves, they should be defended well as they too valuable to waste in hand to hand combat. Due to the hardship of training and the time it took to raise them, Metoikoi toxotai would be an elite archery unit, to be recruited in the higher tiers of Spartan barracks. Their lethality in battle, however, more than justifies all expenses associated with them.

    Historically, Spartans after the loss at Sphakteria, where Athenian Epibatai(=marines) swamped the beachfront defenses and moved inland, harassing the Spartans with missile fire whenever they attempted to come to grips with the Athenian hoplites. It has been theorised that the Athenian force had a big number of peltasts alongside it, or even Kimmerioi toxotai (scythian archers), who would pepper the Spartan force with arrows. In the end, 400 hoplites proved no match for 2000 archers and 8000 lighly armed rowers from the fleet. Whenever the hoplites would try to assault the Athenians, those 2000 archers would break up run in units of 200 men and run around while the other archer units would unleash their arrows at the Spartan’s flanks. It was a hopeless battle. It was also a wake up call for Sparta which realised the importance of light cavalry (to be able to break up toxotai and akontistai formations) and a proffesional archery force to fight against archers. Kretan archers were recruited to fight as mercenaries but also to train the new Metoikoi toxotai elite archer force. Recruited from the most trusted of Perioikoi, they would continue the tradition of Kretan archery, but also be more patriotic then them. Even if Spartans were the absolute overlords of their country, Perioikoi felt they were part of the Spartan heritage too. Thus, even if not as good fighters as the Spartans, they could go up against other cities’ troops easily. As their officers were Spartans, their battle worth would be even higher.




    Worthy, informative unit descriptions I must say!

    I enjoyed the read very much.

    How long will your descriptions be do you think? If you want to make them really long, I can follow your lead add more information that I had to leave out on purpose, so each faction has enough info so as not to appear neglected.

    Cherry, have you already edited them all, or can I still add info to the other 3?
    Last edited by Mulattothrasher; December 30, 2007 at 02:19 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulattothrasher View Post
    Worthy, informative unit descriptions I must say!

    I enjoyed the read very much.

    How long will your descriptions be do you think? If you want to make them really long, I can follow your lead add more information that I had to leave out on purpose, so each faction has enough info so as not to appear neglected.

    Cherry, have you already edited them all, or can I still add info to the other 3?
    Thank you, I haven't finished yet.
    Personally I don't consider any sort of info on them, if indeed is worthy of mention should be left out. But that is just me. If anyone says otherwise I can shorten them. Anyways making shorter descriptions would be much easier.

    Still, Sparta is the great unknown. Most people consider them just the Spartan "homoioi" phallanx, 300, and kids thrown off a cliff. Totally understandable of course, but something I will try to change if I can, for the few that will bother to actually read those descriptions. You see, there are a million books on the Romani, as quite frankly those guys kicked ass and took names, thus deserve it. However, not nearly enough is mentioned on Spartans. I would like to be as thorough as possible - with the allowance of the team of course - as for most people this is the only facts on Sparta they will get, ever.
    I think they deserve that much. Any thoughts?
    My starting motto for them will be,

    “How will the men of the future realize the glory of Sparta from its ruins?” Thucidides



    oh, and Mulattothrasher your descriptions are ROCKING! I think they are just about the right size. However I am SURE we will be flooded with "300" fanboyz asking why isnt' there a barechested unit, so I would like to be as thorough as possible, especially when dealing with that crowd.
    Last edited by Keravnos; December 30, 2007 at 03:14 PM.
    Go Minerwars Go! A 6DOF game of space mining and shooting. SAKA Co-FC, Koinon Hellenon FC, Epeiros FC. RS Hellenistic Historian K.I.S.S.




  7. #7

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman_Man#3 View Post
    Keravnos, should the Skiritai swords be covered in the carbon dusting? It seems to me that at night iron would reflect a lot more light than bronze shields. It would also be more indicative of an attack probably.
    Well, the swords, as well as all their camouflage, are going to be mostly used in the night. In which case the swords will be drawn once the attack begins, in which case, it doesn't really matter if they are visible or not. I imagine the same would happen if they should operate under those conditions.

    It is all in the description, including some of their exploits.
    Go Minerwars Go! A 6DOF game of space mining and shooting. SAKA Co-FC, Koinon Hellenon FC, Epeiros FC. RS Hellenistic Historian K.I.S.S.




  8. #8

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    Would it be possible to add some color to the Akontistai and the slingers? They look so vanilla with the all brown cloth. Even just a bit of colored trim on their tunics would make them 100% better. Since Sparta's color is red, why not red trim? Then the same could be done for the other Greek factions, to make each a bit different?



  9. #9

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    Would it be possible to add some color to the Akontistai and the slingers? They look so vanilla with the all brown cloth. Even just a bit of colored trim on their tunics would make them 100% better. Since Sparta's color is red, why not red trim? Then the same could be done for the other Greek factions, to make each a bit different?
    They are meant to be desolate, people with void looks and void lives.
    For a helot to wear a Spartans' colour, would mean death.
    For a helot to look lively and in good spirits, would mean death.
    They should be drab looking, very plain and quite dissilusioned at life.
    Or someone from the Krypteia would assasinate them...
    Go Minerwars Go! A 6DOF game of space mining and shooting. SAKA Co-FC, Koinon Hellenon FC, Epeiros FC. RS Hellenistic Historian K.I.S.S.




  10. #10
    spirit_of_rob's Avatar The force is my ally
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    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    *chuckles* that would be a no hehe
    Former Skinner/Modeller for EB Former Skinner/Modeller for Hegemonia


    Patrician Opifex under the patronage of Basileos Leandros I and patron of the Opifex Tone

  11. #11

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    They are meant to be desolate, people with void looks and void lives.
    For a helot to wear a Spartans' colour, would mean death.
    For a helot to look lively and in good spirits, would mean death.
    They should be drab looking, very plain and quite dissilusioned at life.
    I think you might be overstating a bit. People always find ways to be happy, and to express themselves.

    Right now, they have the exact same color scheme as vanilla RTW units. I've been playing with these brown-clad peasants for years, and frankly if I never see another that will be too soon.

    There must be some way to make them stand out....
    Last edited by cherryfunk; December 30, 2007 at 10:49 AM.



  12. #12

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    Put them in a Spartan battle line with the cool looking units. They'll stand out then.
    RIP Calvin, you won't be forgotten.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    I think you might be overstating a bit. People always find ways to be happy, and to express themselves.

    Right now, they have the exact same color scheme as vanilla RTW units. I've been playing with these brown-clad peasants for years, and frankly if I never see another that will be too soon.

    There must be some way to make them stand out....
    Cherry.. I believe Kera does make since. Since i been reading a lot of the true Sparta. These Spartans were less to be desired, if you weren't one.
    And they treated these Helots with no respect , even killing them in the young Spartans training showed what they thought of them.
    I say make them plain as you can, with only one hope ( making it through the day! ) They just serve, sleep, eat, and die for Sparta. They didn't go through
    the spartan training to desire the honour of wearing any thing spartan!
    Just the honour to serve and die!
    Sparta will be the most hated and loved faction in this modd!
    That's why they were at war with everyone who didn't agree with them!
    Browns, and darks and grays are not just a vanilla color. But gives the impression of slave and common! Which they were.

    The First post of Sparta's units might be a little long.
    Its good to share the history/the abilities/and stats.

    I know how you and I feel about it. Yet keep it simple for the reader.
    otherwise great job!
    Last edited by swhunter; December 30, 2007 at 04:27 PM.

    Roma Surrectum Greek/Spartan Researcher/Tester.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    what, as the only uncool unit?
    'Ecce, Roma Surrectum!' Beta Tester and Historian
    Under the proud patronage of MarcusTullius

  15. #15

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    Cherry.. I believe Kera does make since.
    So why not give them the black tunic that the flute player has? Or white? Or dark green? Anything but the same drab brown, please -- half the slingers and skirmishers in the mod are going to have the same boring vanilla colors... and these units comprise a big chunk of any army, especially early in a campaign when money is tight. If we want the mod to look different, that means these guys too...



  16. #16

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    yeah, but the hair, folds of the clothes and ropes around the waists are very un-vanilla. Isn't that enough?


    Under patronage of Spirit of Rob; Patron of Century X, Pacco, Cherryfunk, Leif Erikson.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    Not in the game, in the middle of a battle, with the units zoomed out, no... they'll look like vanilla units.

    Why not use that beautiful black tunic you made for the flute player?



  18. #18

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    Not in the game, in the middle of a battle, with the units zoomed out, no... they'll look like vanilla units.

    Why not use that beautiful black tunic you made for the flute player?
    flute players were part of a guild, and a tradition which went from father to son. I think that the reason only they are depicted as wearing black in a vase riddled in colour signifies that it was meant to be so.

    I am of the opinion that all greek factions should have the flutist, and that all flutists should be black clad like them.

    @cherryfunk, I understand your concerns. However I fear that other colours would be very difficult, as they would be difficult to paint, with the means that the Helot would have.
    Go Minerwars Go! A 6DOF game of space mining and shooting. SAKA Co-FC, Koinon Hellenon FC, Epeiros FC. RS Hellenistic Historian K.I.S.S.




  19. #19
    spirit_of_rob's Avatar The force is my ally
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    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    I think you are in danger of a common problem in modding, you get carried away making the elite units look awesome and end up making the plebs look really high end quality aswell with rich cloth patterns etc. Everyone has done it at least a dozen times.

    Plus they wont look like vanilla because Vanilla units are obscenly bright.... anyone remember Parthia? or the Sassanids in Barbarian Invasion!

    I see where you are coming from Cherry but im of the opinion you want... well what are basically peasants or worse to look crap
    Former Skinner/Modeller for EB Former Skinner/Modeller for Hegemonia


    Patrician Opifex under the patronage of Basileos Leandros I and patron of the Opifex Tone

  20. #20

    Default Re: Spartan Preview

    I was just asking for a bit of color, not golden crowns and jeweled daggers...

    I just regret that tone's beautiful faction will have two extremely vanilla units in it... and since those units will comprise about 30% of each stack, 30% of tone's beautiful faction appear to be vanilla, or close enough to it. I think that'll reduce the impact of the faction and all the hard work tone has done.
    Last edited by cherryfunk; December 31, 2007 at 09:42 AM.



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