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  1. #1
    Vicarius
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    Default Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    In a lot of religions, like Christianity, the punishment for sins is eternal – pain and torture to the end of times.

    I have thought about this myself, and I have also seen the question raised by other members here: how can eternal punishment be, in any way defended and regarded as “justice”?

    The time in which we sin, and the effects of the sins, are finite, and for something finite to be rewarded with something infinite is not just. If we are to be punished according to the sin we commited, which is the only just way to be punished, the punishment for a sin which in its nature is finite, would be a punishment which is also finite in its nature.
    We have only a limited time to make up for our sins, and if we do not do so, we will suffer for an unlimited time.

    Eternal punishment would only be just if humans could not change; if evil people will always be evil, and always have been evil, in which case they would continue to sin no matter how long time they were given. This means that an evil person would be created evil and has no possibility to become good. In other words, it is predetermined that the person will go to hell, which in turn means that the person is created so that he/she can go to hell!

    That, obviously, is not justice.

    Let me pose a scenario:
    Let’s say a person sins. What the sin is is not important. While the sin deserves punishment (i.e. eternity in hell), it is not so bad that he can’t make up for it and receive salvation, if given the chance. Sadly, he is never given the chance, as shortly after he commits the sin, he dies. As his soul was full of sin at the time of his death, he will, of course, go to hell. He would perhaps have become a good person and repented for his sins if he continued to live, but no one can know that, not even God. God cannot know it because that too would deny humans choice in their actions, and we fall back on whether we are going to heaven or hell being predetermined.

    Another person commits the same sin, but he does not die straight afterwards. This person lives a long life afterwards, and turns away from his past and becomes a good person, and makes up for his previous sin. At the time of this person’s death, his soul is a virtuous one, and he will therefore go to heaven.

    And with free will this scenario can and will happen, as God cannot give both person an equal amount of time, as that would interfere with the free will of others (let's say that the first person was killed, if God were to prevent that, he would have to take away the killers' free will).

    This seems awfully unfair to me. The first person receives an eternal punishment for a sin that it was not impossible to make up for, as shown by the second person, he was just not given enough time to do so. This shows that eternal punishment is not nearly as just as one would expect from a loving and caring God, who is omnipotent and omniscient, and is also claimed to be just.

    Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Mathias; June 30, 2008 at 05:00 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    justice much like good and evil are vaporous concepts that humans have lain upon creation rather than there being any inherent sense in the universe of it.

    but that being said, I can say that justice is carried out within the spin of the universe, everyone gets whats due.

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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    I was raised a Christian, but for the life of me, I can't find any references to burning in hell eternally in the New Testament. Sure, there are references to Sheol or Gehenna, but these refer specifically to the valley outside Jerusalem where dead animals and the corpses of executed criminals were dumped, and covered with sulphur and burned.

    Jesus never spoke of Hell.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    I was raised a Christian, but for the life of me, I can't find any references to burning in hell eternally in the New Testament. Sure, there are references to Sheol or Gehenna, but these refer specifically to the valley outside Jerusalem where dead animals and the corpses of executed criminals were dumped, and covered with sulphur and burned.

    Jesus never spoke of Hell.
    Hell is mentioned in Matthew 5:22 and Matthew 25:46 says "And these will go away to eternal punishment" (NB: your bible might not use the same wording, as I translated this from my bible which is in Norwegian).
    I don't have time to go through the new testament right now, but I'm sure eternal punishment is mentioned several times, even if hell is not.
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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathias View Post
    Hell is mentioned in Matthew 5:22 and Matthew 25:46 says "And these will go away to eternal punishment" (NB: your bible might not use the same wording, as I translated this from my bible which is in Norwegian).
    I don't have time to go through the new testament right now, but I'm sure eternal punishment is mentioned several times, even if hell is not.
    Eternal punishment means permanent death. Not eternal torture. It refers to being "where God is not", i.e., Nowhere.

    Regarding the parable/simile of the sheep and goats:

    This parable has been interpreted in different ways:

    * Originally the Day of Judgement was to be one where Israel would be damned. Then it came to be seen as a day of triumph for Israel who would finally be vindicated before the pagans. Then it was vindication for only the pure remnant of Israel. Later again, judgement was seen to apply not just to a nation or group but to individuals. Every individual must submit to divine judgement and his or her destiny decided on the basis of personal righteousness or unrighteousness. The idea of a great and universal Judgement both of the living and the dead was inherited by the New Testament and reinterpreted in relation to the Second Coming of Christ. God's reign would be fully established after judgement and evil are finally conquered. The righteous would abide in Paradise, a restored Eden, but heaven itself would be established with the renewal of all things, a new heaven and a new earth. Gehenna, from the vale of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem (at one time a place for burning the city's rubbish and associated with sacrifices in ancient times) becomes the symbol of the horror and torment for the wicked.

    * Judgement and grace belong together both in Judaism and Christianity. A God who only loves and does not judge is unjust. A God who judges but does not love is a sadist.

    * It could be questioned whether judgement according to works alone is theologically possible for the God present in Jesus. Does faith in Jesus Christ count for anything? However, it may be that humans need that sort of incentive, to take God seriously. The judgement theme has been strong in Christianity until recently. It encouraged good works through fear of God. In contrast, more recently universal salvation has been stressed, believing that a good God would not allow the eternal damning of his creation.
    Modern and past literalists caused this eternal hellfire BS to spread like a plague. It refers to the "death pit" outside Jerusalem. I am sure ancient Jewish mothers and fathers used to warn their children "Be good or you will end up burning in the pit."

  6. #6

    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Sheep and the Goats?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    The place "Hell" is a simplification, it doesn't exist.

  8. #8
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Boofhead, Jesus uses the term Gehenna so the people he was preaching to understand what he meant by eternal punishment.

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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post
    Boofhead, Jesus uses the term Gehenna so the people he was preaching to understand what he meant by eternal punishment.
    A very convenient approach from modern eyes. One has to appreciate the Jewish situation 2,000 years ago from their perspective. What the supposed "hellfire" verses refer to are to being cast out of the community. i.e. going where God is not. i.e., nowhere, for God is omnipresent.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathias View Post
    Any thoughts?
    Dead or alive you can't repent for mortal sins, mortal sins are the only ones that will get you into hell. That's about it.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Thutmose View Post
    Dead or alive you can't repent for mortal sins, mortal sins are the only ones that will get you into hell. That's about it.
    Logic behind it? Oh wait, we going to hell, no matter if it is logical or not. Mommy, I had feelings of lust for about 5 minutes! This is worth an automatic invitation to eternal punishment. Why eternal punishment for something finite? Why eternal punishment for not believing in something credible, at first? Hell is nothing more than a fantasy to scare children, and believers.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  12. #12

    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    I like the idea of purgatory, even though I don't believe in an afterlife of any sort.

    Even the worst person you could thing of (say, Hitler), could eventually find forgiveness there. The only difference is the time spent there.

    An average person, who had an affair, might spend a few years there. Hitler would spend hundreds of thousands.

    So, yeah. Kinda got off track...


  13. #13

    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    I think it's pretty clear that Hell is eternal and terrible. Note all the references to "eternal fire" and "eternal torment."

  14. #14
    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Manius Julius View Post
    I think it's pretty clear that Hell is eternal and terrible. Note all the references to "eternal fire" and "eternal torment."
    It's pretty clear if you only follow that particular teaching of the scriptures. The fire, once again, comes from references to the death-pit outside Jerusalem, and the eternal destruction is just permanent death. Look at the words.

    Gehenna and the "Valley of Hinnom" are interchangeable.

    Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (גהינום)) is the Jewish hell or purgatory. In Judaism hell is a place of purification[1] and fire for the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but some for eternity.[2]

    In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna." The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the underworld of punishment in the afterlife.

    Gehenna also appears in the New Testament and in early Christian writing to represent the place where evil will be destroyed. It lends its name to Islam's hell, Jahannam.

    In both Rabbinical Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna as a destination of the wicked is different from Sheol, the abode of all the dead.

    [edit] Etymology

    The word is derived from Hebrew: גי(א)-הינום‎ Gêhinnôm (also Gai ben-Hinnom (Hebrew: גיא בן הינום‎) meaning the Valley of Hinnom's son.[3] The valley forms the southern border of ancient Jerusalem and stretches from the foot of Mt. Zion, eastward, to the Kidron Valley. It is first mentioned in Joshua 15:8.[3] as a deep, narrow ravine at the foot of the walls of Jerusalem where refuse was burned. It is here that the bodies of executed criminals or others deemed unworthy of a proper burial were dumped. The association with hell derives from the tradition that the Canaanites sacrificed children to their god Moloch in this place.

    [edit] Hebrew Bible observations

    It is mentioned in the Tanakh in several places, notably 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; 2 Kings 23:10; that the southwestern gate of Jerusalem, overlooking the valley, came to be known as "The Gate of the Valley" (Hebrew: שער הגיא‎). Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6; 32:35; the Book of Jeremiah (2:23) speaks of residents worshipping Moloch and committing abominations, foreshadowing the destruction of Jerusalem:

    "19:2. And you shall go out to the Ben-Hinnom Valley which is at the entrance of the Harsith Gate, and you shall call there the words that I will speak to you. 19:3. And you shall say; Hearken to the word of the Lord, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; so said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; Behold I am bringing evil upon this place, which whoever hears, his ears will tingle. 19:4. Because they forsook Me and they estranged this place and burnt incense therein to other gods, which they had not known, they, their forefathers, and the kings of Judah, and they filled this place with the blood of innocent people. 19:5. And they built the high places of Baal to burn their children with fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command, neither did I speak nor did it enter My mind. 19:6. Therefore, behold days are coming, says the Lord, when this place will no longer be called Topheth or Ben-Hinnom Valley, but the Valley of Slaughter."

    In Hebrew:

    וְיָצָאתָ אֶל-גֵּיא בֶן-הִנֹּם אֲשֶׁר פֶּתַח שַׁעַר החרסות (הַחַרְסִית) וְקָרָאתָ שָּׁם אֶת-הַדְּבָרִים אֲשֶׁר-אֲדַבֵּר אֵלֶיךָ: וְאָמַרְתָּ שִׁמְעוּ דְבַר-יְהוָה מַלְכֵי יְהוּדָה וְיֹשְׁבֵי יְרוּשָׁלִָם כֹּה-אָמַר יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל הִנְנִי מֵבִיא רָעָה עַל-הַמָּקוֹם הַזֶּה אֲשֶׁר כָּל-שֹׁמְעָהּ, תִּצַּלְנָה אָזְנָיו: יַעַן אֲשֶׁר עֲזָבֻנִי וַיְנַכְּרוּ אֶת-הַמָּקוֹם הַזֶּה וַיְקַטְּרוּ-בוֹ לֵאלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-יְדָעוּם הֵמָּה וַאֲבוֹתֵיהֶם וּמַלְכֵי יְהוּדָה וּמָלְאוּ אֶת-הַמָּקוֹם הַזֶּה דַּם נְקִיִּם: וּבָנוּ אֶת-בָּמוֹת הַבַּעַל לִשְׂרֹף אֶת-בְּנֵיהֶם בָּאֵשׁ עֹלוֹת לַבָּעַל אֲשֶׁר לֹא-צִוִּיתִי וְלֹא דִבַּרְתִּי וְלֹא עָלְתָה עַל-לִבִּי: לָכֵן הִנֵּה-יָמִים בָּאִים, נְאֻם-יְהוָה וְלֹא-יִקָּרֵא לַמָּקוֹם הַזֶּה עוֹד הַתֹּפֶת וְגֵיא בֶן-הִנֹּם כִּי אִם-גֵּיא הַהֲרֵגָה:

    Pagans once sacrificed their children to pagan idols in the fires in Gehenna, and this was an abomination; in 2 Kings, 23:10, King Josiah forbade the sacrificing of children to Moloch at Gehenna (though Baal is not mentioned in this particular verse). Rashi claims that the Tophet (תופת) was the Molech. Since priests would bang on drums (תופים) so that the father would not hear the groans of the child when he would be burned by the hands of the pagan image, Molech, they called it Topheth.

    There are stories of fires that were kept burning via the adding of brimstone (sulfur). Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible Volume I, explains,

    “It became the common lay-stall garbage dump of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast.”

    The dump was full of rotting garbage which sent up a stench that could be smelled for miles.

    [edit] Pharisaic tradition

    The Pharisees taught that the dead in sheol would be resurrected for reward or punishment on Judgment Day.[4] Gehenna was the place where the wicked awaited judgment day in fiery torment. The godly, meanwhile, were said to await Judgment Day in the bosom of Abraham.[5]

    [edit] Rabbinic tradition

    The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[6] Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. “Gehenna” is sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months. Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[7] Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever,[8] in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism).

    [edit] New Testament

    In the synoptic gospels Jesus uses the word Gehenna to refer to the place where sinners are punished after death.[3] It is a place where both soul and body will be destroyed (Matthew 10:28), a place of "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43).

    In the Gospel of Matthew 23:33, Jesus observes,

    "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of gehenna?”

    The word gehenna is also found in the epistle of James, where it is said to set the tongue on fire.

    Most Christians understand gehenna (hell) to be a place of eternal punishment. On the other hand, annihilationists, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, understand gehenna to be a place where sinners are utterly destroyed (like garbage in a burning dump), not tormented forever.

    The New Testament also refers to hades as a destination of the dead and of those who will not be exalted in heaven (Matthew 11:23). However, hades is portrayed as a different place from gehenna.

    [edit] Islam

    The word gehenna (Gehennem, Jahannam) also occurs in the Muslim holy book, the Qur'an, as a place of torment for sinners or Islamic equivalent to hell.
    As you can see, the issue is and was far from cut and dried back then, or even now. It depends on your denominational leanings. Perhaps a Christian perspective should include a high regard for the Jewish teachings, as after all, Jesus and the early Christians who expressed the doctrine were Jewish and express more than just a little Jewish influence in their writings. Also note that much of Christian dogma comes from after the birth of Rabbinical Judaism.

    Not clear at all. Even the Jews never had a consensus about Hell's existence, nor its permanence.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Oh! I hadn't thought to look there. Now I shall give up my life of having fun and let wanking hand fade away.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam Popat View Post
    Oh! I hadn't thought to look there. Now I shall give up my life of having fun and let wanking hand fade away.
    If Jesus was God in human form, I'm sure he consulted Dr. Hans Jerkoff at some point.


  17. #17

    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    hell isn't eternal. it's temporary. for the believers and the people of the book. unless they believe jesus is god or believe that he's in some sort of partnership





  18. #18
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    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    'Eternal punishment' is quite funny, but I can say that as an atheist. Why oh why would anyone ever subscribe to 'loving' some supreme omnipotent deity that creates evil, and utilises it with such finesse purely for not believing in Him or falling for temptations or 'natural' urges that 'He' designed into us, whilst He refuses to actually do anything for anyone any more anyway.. Sorry, but the whole thing is really quite funny, but.. whatever floats your boat.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
    'Eternal punishment' is quite funny, but I can say that as an atheist. Why oh why would anyone ever subscribe to 'loving' some supreme omnipotent deity that creates evil, and utilises it with such finesse purely for not believing in Him or falling for temptations or 'natural' urges that 'He' designed into us, whilst He refuses to actually do anything for anyone any more anyway.. Sorry, but the whole thing is really quite funny, but.. whatever floats your boat.
    Why do you have to go to school to make something out of yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Desmotes View Post
    Mansa, I never heard it would be eternal then, according to islamic jurisdiction (Shariah doesn't count, since only human interpretation and hardly god's divine law). Backup?
    Qur-an, Haditha, Sunnah?

    Either because you lack a good portion of reason or because you don't want to burn eternally/a long while, quite possibly.
    “And whoever kills a believer intentionally – his recompense is Hell to abide therein forever, and the warth and the curse of Alllah is upon him, and He has prepared for him a great punishment.”
    [Qur'an 4:93]

    ‘He who kills himself with a steel [weapon] will be eternal inhabitant of Hell, and he will have that [weapon] in his hand and will be thrusting it into his stomach forever and ever; he who kills himself by drinking poison will sip in the fire of Hell, forever and forever. He will kills himself by throwing himself from a the top of a mountain and will constantly fall in the fire of Hell forever and ever.”
    [Muslim]

    “But they asked victory, and disappointment is the lot of every obstinate tyrant. In front of him is Hell, and he is given pus to drink. He will gulp it but will hardly be able t oswallow it, and death will come to him from every place, yet he will not die. And in front of him will be a heavy punishment.”

    [Qur'an 14:15-17]

    “Then it will be said to those who were unjust, ‘Taste the eternal punishment. Are you recompensed except for what you used to earn?’”
    [Qur'an 10:52]

    “Those reject [truth] among the People of the Book are the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, dwelling there therein forever. They are the worst of creatures.”

    [Qur'an 98:6]

    just to clear things up


    "And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account." (Quran, 3:199)



    "Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous." (Quran, 3:113-114)
    Last edited by Mansa musa; December 31, 2007 at 09:19 PM.





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    Default Re: Divine justice and Eternal Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansa musa View Post
    Why do you have to go to school to make something out of yourself?
    Because knowledge is a wonderful thing, and allows us to achieve wonderful things? Maybe not in all cases, of course..

    Desmotes: Are you saying that fear is a primary focus of belief?

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