help ~ i can’t find my mind!

[Amorphos]

help ~ i can’t find my mind!

i have looked everywhere, in my brain, in electro-magentism, behind the settee and on top of the kitchen cupboards, but it is not anywhere to be found!

i asked god and he said; well thats a coincidence as i cannot find mine either, i have looked in the universe, to infinity and in the void yet it is nowhere to be found! i know it is what i am above all my aspects, so i can only presume that the truth is ‘we are all lost’ and that is the essential nature of reality - lost.

can anyone find their mind? the mystery continues...

[Tankbuster]

Sure, I can find it.
The mind, your thoughts, the idea of a "soul"... all are simply chemical reactions in your brain... It's nothing you can lose.

As for the God thing... I won't answer, so that I won't turn this into another religious thread

[Amorphos]

The mind, your thoughts, the idea of a “soul”... all are simply chemical reactions in your brain... It’s nothing you can lose.

ah so it is a bunch of chemicals delivering information - i am so relieved.


perhaps not eh!

ah and you lose it when you die

as for the god thing, well if mind cannot be found in the physical... then universally mind is? but no lets not make another god thread!

[Tankbuster]

ah so it is a bunch of chemicals delivering information - i am so relieved.

So am I. The whole idea of an immortal soul gives me the heebie-jeebies.

perhaps not eh!

There is abundant scientific information for my claim.
In fact, there are no arguments for the existence of a soul. People like to think this, because it's inherent to our darwinistic instincts that we look at everything as something personal, and we like to see our thoughts as seperate from our physical aspects.
But this is merely an illusion.

ah and you lose it when you die

Well that's the logic consequence of being a bunch of oxygen-needing chemicals... when the body stops breathing, the chemicals pass out.

[Amorphos]

So am I. The whole idea of an immortal soul gives me the heebie-jeebies

if it is not the ‘you’ sat there reading this then i am not surprised, this would mean that the soul is something other than you that replaces it.

But this is merely an illusion.

hang on a minute, it is not an illusion until you have solved all the worlds mysteries. i am not talking of a soul or a spirit, these are made up ideas [most probably] to try to define the mind as something divine. i only say there is mind and it is universal and infinite [or else we could not conceive of the infinite {read rudy ruckers ‘infinity and the mind’}].

Well that’s the logic consequence of being a bunch of oxygen-needing chemicals... when the body stops breathing, the chemicals pass out.

strange then how we die suddenly :hmmm: , you would have thought we would still be there even though our hearts and lungs had stopped. the brain would still tick over until its last chemical reaction. hows that for heebie-jeebie material!

now if you took one example of such a chemical reaction and dissected it - outside of the body/brain, you would find nothing more than information producing chemicals.

...and no, we are not just info producing chemicals.

[Tankbuster]

hang on a minute, it is not an illusion until you have solved all the worlds mysteries. i am not talking of a soul or a spirit, these are made up ideas [most probably] to try to define the mind as something divine. i only say there is mind and it is universal and infinite [or else we could not conceive of the infinite {read rudy ruckers ‘infinity and the mind’}].

?
So what you're saying is. My brain can imagine infinity, thus my brain has to be infinite... That's ridiculous. That's like saying: "I can imagine the colour red, so that means my mind has to be red.

strange then how we die suddenly :hmmm: , you would have thought we would still be there even though our hearts and lungs had stopped. the brain would still tick over until its last chemical reaction.

The brain DOES tick over until it's last chemical reaction. Mind you, there has to be oxygen for this reaction, and the nitro the brain produces has to be taken away. This is what the blood does.
Take the guillotine for example. The head and brain is seperated from the body. But do you think the brain stops working immediately? Nope, it stays working, since there is still a bit of oxygen left in the brain. And the brain keeps working until all that oxygen is used. That's why there is still brain activity for around 3,7 seconds when your head is chopped off.

now if you took one example of such a chemical reaction and dissected it - outside of the body/brain, you would find nothing more than information producing chemicals.

That's exactly what you get. What do you think comes out? Smoke, light effects?

...and no, we are not just info producing chemicals.

Actually, we are...

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Have you heard about neuroscience?

[Amorphos]

Have you heard about neuroscience

erm yes - and it explains nothing other than what the brain is as a chemical computer. you cannot define mind by information or by its parts and interations with that computer. that would be like defining the user by the computer.

[Maverick]

help ~ i can’t find my mind!

I always keep mine right next to my soul and personality so it doesn't get misplaced.

[Amorphos]

thutmose

ha, yup thats the best place for it, next to by bucket of chemicals oops i mean brain.

[Medicus]

I found my mind. It was hanging out with my personality and conscience.

[Ummon]

Overall, people keep propagating mistakes, in one sense and the other. :wink:

[Banned]

In the winter moonlight after the comely twilight, ask yourself...

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Also, you should consider the fact that the idea of a "soul" is an unbacked idea, thus creating far more mistery than solving it. Better to say "I don't know" than to come to this kind of conclusion.

[Ummon]

Let's make it a bit more complicated, just for fun.

He doesn't find his mind.

Which mind? This is a fairly basic, yet very profound concept. The mind changes with time, instant by instant.

And how could a vase contain itself?

But now let's assume that a mind doesn't exist. This leads to a serious problem: what you are perceiving now then must be an illusion. But to whom?

If there is no perceiver, there can be no perception. By the way, this means you have a mind.

[Amorphos]

tankbuster

So what you’re saying is. My brain can imagine infinity, thus my brain has to be infinite... That’s ridiculous. That’s like saying: “I can imagine the colour red, so that means my mind has to be red.

no i am saying:

1. your brain is like a computer, it cannot conceive of the infinite!

2. your mind is not your brain.

3. mind is pre-existent, beyond existence there is an entity in which everything - all potentials etc are. you cannot get something from nothing, so all potentiality must have a basis. secondly everything must be everything and hence infinity must be the unbound form of that.

That’s why there is still brain activity for around 3,7 seconds when your head is chopped off.

interesting! i thought it may be a little longer for thought to disperse completely? perhaps i am completely wrong but havent people come back from the dead hours later [some say even a day or so?].

That’s exactly what you get. What do you think comes out? Smoke, light effects?

ha, no. i think you get exactly what you see and that doesn’t add up to mindfulness.

Actually, we are...

[>the dissected brain<]

no the brain is! it is the instrument by which mind connects to the world, like the user and his computer. just like there has to be something which is that what sees in our vision, there is the same in all our senses and thought itself.

and from your reply to thutmose...

But I am quite sure that in time, we will learn more and more about our brain and we will come to the conclusion that there is no need for the idea of a soul.

i am quite sure that in time we will look beyond the components and start to see the whole. this is where we will find the answers and that is all i am looking at/for. as you can see i am not religious, i am not trying to qualify my beliefs, i am simply exploring what i see as logical truths when compared to the greater nature of things.

just imagine this [as was said a while back in another post]; a saying; an infinite amount of monkeys would eventually write all shakespear’s plays. when we break this down to its component aspects we can see how the simplest of functions multiplied by infinity can result in infinite knowledge i.e. the ‘monkeys’ [simple operations] can not only type [‘functions’ laws and principles] shakespear, but would eventually write everything! this would not take any time at all being within the realm of infinity. hence we may/probably have within the greater concept of infinity, something similar to omniscience. interestingly i think such things may one day be used as a resource!

voltaire

Also, you should consider the fact that the idea of a “soul” is an unbacked idea, thus creating far more mistery than solving it. Better to say “I don’t know” than to come to this kind of conclusion.

indeed! we should begin any examination with things we know something of, like mind, infinity etc.

ummon

nice reply!

The mind changes with time, instant by instant.

i would say that mind is infinite and universal, thus its aspects change, but on the whole it remains the same ~ kinda like ‘you’ the entity reading and perceiving this. you change but at anytime you would still be the same you!

And how could a vase contain itself?

by being infinite.

[Tankbuster]

tankbuster

no i am saying:

1. your brain is like a computer, it cannot conceive of the infinite!

2. your mind is not your brain.

3. mind is pre-existent, beyond existence there is an entity in which everything - all potentials etc are. you cannot get something from nothing, so all potentiality must have a basis. secondly everything must be everything and hence infinity must be the unbound form of that.

I can agree with step 2, but how do you come to step 1 and step 3?
Why can't my brain conceive the infinite? And if my brain can't, then why would my "soul" or my "mind" be able to do that?

interesting! i thought it may be a little longer for thought to disperse completely? perhaps i am completely wrong but havent people come back from the dead hours later [some say even a day or so?].

You're talking about clinic death.
For example, you get a heart attack, your heart stops pumping, blood stalls, brain stops its activity.
Now it is POSSIBLE that when your heart gets an extra impulse like defibrillators, or just throwing the body in ice cold water (the cold will work as an electric pulse), it starts working again, the blood starts streaming (provided there haven't formed too many blood clusters). And the moment your brain receives oxygen again, it starts gathering information again (provided the most of your brain cells haven't already died by lack of oxygen). It's like the 'rebooting' of a computer: the moment the electricity is switched back on, the computer starts processing data again.
So if your body 'dies' (i.e. heart stops) but you're in, for example, a very cold environment, it is possible that your brain is not damaged, and can be rebooted.

no the brain is! it is the instrument by which mind connects to the world, like the user and his computer. just like there has to be something which is that what sees in our vision, there is the same in all our senses and thought itself.

"Like the user and it's computer."
I'm sure you could say that. You could also say that the mind is like a person, and the brain is a bike, but then you're just comparing something to something. And in this case, it could very well be a false comparison. Why not compare to a robot? A robot [brain] can work and process information as long as it's supplied electricity [oxygen]. And some modern robots have very good AI so they can work by themselves, without a "user".
You don't compare to prove. You compare to simplify a proven thing.

i am quite sure that in time we will look beyond the components and start to see the whole.

I've been thinking about this sentence for a while now.
I don't think I really know what you mean. If you are trying to say that we will start focusing on the "why" rather than the "how"...
Please elaborate

this is where we will find the answers and that is all i am looking at/for. as you can see i am not religious, i am not trying to qualify my beliefs, i am simply exploring what i see as logical truths when compared to the greater nature of things.

I respect that. I'm also looking for the answers, but I think that we will receive our answers by studying scientific information, as we have done for ages.
The moment we yield to things like religion or philosophy, is the moment our progress will halt.

[Amorphos]

tankbuster

I can agree with step 2, but how do you come to step 1 and step 3?
Why can’t my brain conceive the infinite? And if my brain can’t, then why would my “soul” or my “mind” be able to do that?

point 3 is a very long answer, that has been and will be addressed over time.

point 1, is that the brain is like a computer in that it calculates in terms of limits. a computer is binary 0 and 1’s, the brain is similar as each brain cell has chemical membranes that produce positive and negative currents - from what i can tell. either way they both read info and calculate responses, in short you cannot add up to the infinite ~ it is incalculable [as i see it].

the mind would be able to do that if it is not physical, as it would be unbounded as is infinity. if infinity includes all relative nature then mind would be one of them, that is a big ‘if’ i know. if we can show that there is a quality called mind then the rest follows.

i am surprised you agreed with point 2 ~ oh, perhaps you see mind as an holistic entity, rather than a quality. yes i see, thats a difficult one.
___________________________________________

the cold will work as an electric pulse

another interesting thing i didn’t know!

It’s like the ‘rebooting’ of a computer: the moment the electricity is switched back on, the computer starts processing data again.

i am thinking star trek now, but we could then in theory stop people dying, by artificially giving the brain oxygen.

some modern robots have very good AI so they can work by themselves, without a “user”.

i agree a human can be seen as a biological robot, perhaps a sleepwalker is something like what that would be.

You don’t compare to prove. You compare to simplify a proven thing.

well its a grey matter [excuse pun], we could say as many do, that ‘you’ or the mind is that holistic entity which is a result of brain activity. sure we can explain the i inside, the you and the personality as like software that runs the hardware [and is the user] but this just doesn’t add up to my greatest subjective reality which is me. i don’t know how to prove it, so i can only draw comparisons in the hope that we are getting nearer to it by examining it in detail.

__________________________________________________________

I’ve been thinking about this sentence for a while now.
I don’t think I really know what you mean. If you are trying to say that we will start focusing on the “why” rather than the “how”...
Please elaborate

ah this is the other angle of my argument and very much more difficult. as the result of years of thinking about infinity i think it must be everything in some way - by definition really. paradoxically it cannot be any specific thing or this would give it limits when it is the unlimited. if there is a quality we can show then it must be within this whole everythingness, then if there is such a thing as mind or being then it has them... IF!

secondly, in a similar way to how we define ourselves by breaking it up into parts, we also define existence. science is largely definitions of existence in terms of its parts. e.g. how would you describe reality as entire? you don’t one just describes its aspects. think of momentum, gravity and light, could we not describe them as a single entity being acted upon rather than dimensions, forces and energies? quantum duplication; how can one parcel of energy be replicated across the other side of the universe or even as some say in another universe, is there not a common medium? food for thought eh! [i done a thread on this somewhere called life the universe and everything].

I respect that. I’m also looking for the answers, but I think that we will receive our answers by studying scientific information, as we have done for ages.

thanks. i agree, i just think that science can and will explore things in different ways in the future - it has to.

The moment we yield to things like religion or philosophy, is the moment our progress will halt.

religion yes, philosophy? well its a useful tool at the least, some things cannot be explained scientifically! you define infinity scientifically then i will prove you wrong philosophically! [erm i hope lols]

[Amorphos]

ummon

You have posed a complicated question. But infact, we might say, that what they call mind there is something different.

yes they [buddhists] see it as empty, where i would ask how can anything arise from that or dwell therin? either way the empty mind - if not containing anything - cannot be you or a part of you. we have to see things in the apparent dichotomy where the empty mind co-exists with its core elements and contained mind, as like infinity must coexist with the material world.

[Tankbuster]

First of all, Quetzalcoatl, I enjoy talking to you. It's sensible

Now, I'm getting too tired to discuss your entire post, but I'd like to say this:

i am thinking star trek now, but we could then in theory stop people dying, by artificially giving the brain oxygen.

We can do this, for example in a coma, the status is similar to this, except that the heart is still beating.

It would be possible to stop people's brains from 'dying' if you could make a system that brings oxygen to the brain AND (just as important) takes the nitro away. And that's very difficult, near impossible.