Surah al-rum

[Mansa musa]

The early Muslim community perceived the Christian Byzantine Empire (or Eastern Romans, therefore ar-Rum) as nearer to their religion, whilst the Meccans felt more inclined to the Persian religion.

According to Muslim tradition, the Meccan polytheists taunted the Muslims by pointing to the recent military defeats of the Byzantines by the Persian Sassanid Empire, that adhered to Zoroastrianism, and predicted that the Christian Byzantines were about to be defeated, and that the Muslims were next in line
In this situation, in AD 615, Muhammad announced that he had received a revelation, the Sura al-Rum, that the Romans would triumph over the Persians and the Muslims over the Meccan polytheists

The Qur'an, chapter 30 (Ar-Rum), verse 2 to 6:
“

1. Alif Lam Mim.
2. The Romans are vanquished,
3. In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,
4. Within a few years. Allah's is the command before and after; and on that day the believers shall rejoice,
5. With the help of Allah; He helps whom He pleases; and He is the Mighty, the Merciful;
6. (This is) Allah's promise! Allah will not fail His promise, but most people do not know

* In verse 3, the Arabic word "adna al-ard" that is translated as "a near land" can also be translated just as accurately to "in the lowest land". Muslims now view this to be relevant, arguing that the Jordanian Valley, the land were the Romans became victorious, is the lowest land on the earth.
* In verse 4, the Arabic word "biḍa‘" (Arabic بضع) that is translated as "a few" means a number between 3 to 9 or 10.

* You can click here to listen to this Sura in Arabic.


Hadith

Abu Bakr, a companion (Arabic: Sahaba) of Muhammad and later the first Caliph, defended the prophetic validity of this prediction and ended up making a bet with Ubay ibn Khalaf, a Meccan polytheist.

Muslim scholar Al-Baizawi writes: "This passage refers to the defeat of the Byzantines in Syria by the Persians under Khusran Parvis. (C.E. 615 - 6 years before the Hegira). However, the defeat of the Persians should take place soon 'in a small number of years'. In the light of this prediction, Abu-Bakr undertook a bet with Ubai-ibn-Khalaf that this prediction would be fulfilled within three years, but he was corrected by Mohammed who stated that the 'small number' is between three and nine years .

The Arabic language has a word for single year, two years and a third grammatic form for three or more years. It is the third form that is used in the Qur'anic verse.

Bidh'un in the text means a short period -a period of from three to nine years. The period between the loss of Jerusalem (614-15) by the Romans and their victory at Issus (622) was seven years, and that to the penetration of Persia by Heraclius was nine years.



The timeline

Year Roman-Persian events[11] Arabian events
AD 602 (BH 20) Byzantine Emperor Mauricius is murdered by Phocas. Sassanid King Khosrau II reopens war against the Roman (Byzantine) Empire.
AD 608 (BH 14) Persian armies, after plundering Syria and Asia Minor, advance on Chalcedon.
AD 610 (BH 12) Heraclius overthrows Phocas and becomes Emperor.
AD 613 (BH 9) Persian armies take Damascus.
AD 614 (BH 8) Persian armies take Jerusalem and capture the True Cross. Migration to Abyssinia
AD 615 (BH 7) Traditional Muslim date of the Sura al-Rum.
AD 619 (BH 4) Persians capture Egypt. Muhammad's Year of Sorrow
AD 622 (AH 1) Emperor Heraclius takes the field and defeats Persians in the Battle of Issus. Muhammad's emigrates to Medina, beginning of Muslim calendar
AD 624 (AH 2) Heraclius advances into northern Media. Battle of Badr, Muslims victory over Meccan army
AD 625 (AH 3) Battle of Uhud, Meccan victory over Muslim army
AD 626 (AH 4) Heraclius fights in Lazistan (Colchis), while Persians and Awars unsuccessfully besiege Constantinople.
AD 627 (AH 5) Heraclius defeats the Persian army in the Battle of Nineveh and advances towards Ctesiphon. Battle of the Trench: Meccans unsuccessfully besiege Medina.
AD 628 (AH 6) Khosrau II flees from internal rebellion and is murdered in February, while the Romans retake Syria. Khosrau's successor Kavadh II proposes peace with the Romans. Treaty of Hudaybiyyah between Muslims and Meccans.
AD 629 (AH 7) Peace negotiations are concluded in June, Persians yielding Syria and Egypt and returning the True Cross.. The first pilgrimage of Muslims to the Ka'ba.
AD 632 (AH 8) Heraclius visits Jerusalem as a pilgrim and restores the True Cross, marking the conclusive nature of the Roman victory.. Conquest of Mecca: Muslim force under Muhammad enters Mecca unopposed, decisive Muslim victory.
AD 632 (AH 10) Death of Muhammad
AD 636 (AH 14)
Arabs capture Syria and Palestine

[Mansa musa]

i don't think anybody can muster the courage to respond to this one

[removeduser_487563287433]

i don't think anybody can muster the courage to respond to this one

It's easy. It's either coincidence, or the prophecy was invented after the events.

[Mansa musa]

It's easy. It's either coincidence, or the prophecy was invented after the events.

provide evidence that surah al-rum was made up after the events took place that the hadiths are unauthentic and made up or that the entire thing was fabricated. you made a statement now...prove it

Mansa Musa, we all know that the Quran didn't exist until several decades after the death of Mohammed, and possibly not in its present form. So I really doubt this can be even called a "prophecy", instead of a "review of historical things".

voltaire. that's a very idiotic statement to make. people with the best of memories memorized the Qur'an. nothing was tampered in the Qur'an. produce evidence for your absurd claim that the Qur'an "didn't exist".

You know, for someone who only needs faith in Allah, you sure come up with some crappy evidence. Doubting?

"What a pity O ‘Ammar, a rebellious group will kill you."

‘Ammar was killed in the Battle of Siffin by the supporters of Mu‘awiya, who rebelled against Caliph ‘Ali.

The monghols

"The Hour will not come before you fight against a people with red faces, small, slant eyes and flat noses. They wear hairy leather boots."
"
This affair began with Prophethood and as a mercy; then it will be mercy and Caliphate; afterwards it will change into a cruel monarchy, and finally into an iniquity and tyranny. He also prophesied: Surely, the Caliphate after me will last thirty years; afterwards it will a cruel monarchy."

‘Uthman will be killed while reading the Qur’an. God will dress him in a shirt but they will desire to remove it from him.

By this saying, he meant that ‘Uthman would become Caliph but his deposition would be sought, and finally he would be martyred while reading the Qur’an. This happened exactly as he predicted.

"From the tribe of Thaqif will appear a liar who claims Prophethood and a blood-thirsty tyrant."

By this, he gave tidings of the notorious Mukhtar, who claimed Prophethood, and the criminal Hajjaj, who killed tens of thousands of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mukhtar

"Surely, Constantinople (Istanbul) will be conquered (by my community); how blessed the commander who will conquer it, and how blessed his army."

[removeduser_487563287433]

provide evidence that surah al-rum was made up after the events took place that the hadiths are unauthentic and made up or that the entire thing was fabricated. you made a statement now...prove it

Provide evidence that people can predict the future. They cannot, which is my evidence.

[Mansa musa]

Provide evidence that people can predict the future. They cannot, which is my evidence.

this is my evidence

that doesn't sound like good evidence

[Richard]

i don't think anybody can muster the courage to respond to this one

What exactly are we meant to respond to? You set it up so we couldn't respond to it so you could say "HA, got you, you guys have no answer for me this time!".

EDIT: Oh I see; there was a prophecy in there somewhere was there? Righto.

[Ummagumma]

Was there a question to respond to in that? Looks more like a sermon.

[Mansa musa]

Was there a question to respond to in that? Looks more like a sermon.

i don't think you read the article

[Ummagumma]

Yes, I did. I just re-read it, twice - just to see if there was a hidden question there. I still can't see one. 'Blah blah, he said this, he said that, blah blah, time line, smilie.'
Not even a question mark, or even piece of your own writing - other than the smilie. Looks like a cut-paste from some encyclopedia thing. What do you want exactly, and why would it require courage?

[Mansa musa]

Surah al-rum says that in 3 to 9 years the persians would be victorious against the byzantines but the byzantines will battle back and crush the persians specifically in the "lowest land" wich refers to the jordanian valley wich is the lowest place on earth(where the battle took place) and that's indeed what happened

AD 615 (BH 7) Traditional Muslim date of the Sura al-Rum.
AD 619 (BH 4) Persians capture Egypt.
AD 622 (AH 1) Emperor Heraclius takes the field and defeats Persians in the Battle of Issus.

[green tea]

So... the Qu`ran was right once? This is what the thread is about? As a true believer of the only right religion, you should not be too surprised.

[Mansa musa]

So... the Qu`ran was right once? This is what the thread is about? As a true believer of the only right religion, you should not be too surprised.

are you being sarcastic?

[Ummagumma]

Surah al-rum says that in 3 to 9 years the persians would be victorious against the byzantines but the byzantines will battle back and crush the persians specifically in the "lowest land" wich refers to the jordanian valley wich is the lowest place on earth(where the battle took place) and that's indeed what happened

It would have been helpful to indicate that in the opening somewhere, rather than just emboldening parts. It's nice to add a personal touch to copy-paste stuff, surely?
If you want a reply, it would be:

4. Within a few years. Allah's is the command before and after; and on that day the believers shall rejoice,
5. With the help of Allah; He helps whom He pleases; and He is the Mighty, the Merciful;
6. (This is) Allah's promise! Allah will not fail His promise, but most people do not know

Yet after his 'promised command before and after' there was a defeat, and the capital was not taken until after the 'promised' time period.
I'm sure there are many speakers from many nations that have said they will conquer their foes within [time period], and have been successful in their goals. It in no way implies divine right or any such supernatural intervention. I fail to see this as some miracle, sorry.

[Mansa musa]

Yet after his 'promised command before and after' there was a defeat, and the capital was not taken until after the 'promised' time period.
I'm sure there are many speakers from many nations that have said they will conquer their foes within [time period], and have been successful in their goals. It in no way implies divine right or any such supernatural intervention. I fail to see this as some miracle, sorry.

you're misinterpreting the verse. there's 2 parts to the prophecy the first part details persia attacking the byzantines then the byzantines fighting back overcoming persia in 3-9 years. and the second part refers to the victory of the muslims at the battle of badr wich occured in 624 A.d. also within the time frame of 3-9 years

[Ummagumma]

you're misinterpreting the verse.

It probably makes more sense in Arabic than translated. It does not, to me, imply that a single battle will be won. It is 'command before and after' - total victory. Surely it would be 'command before and after, for a while, then a loss, then another few years, then command again'?
As with every other prophetic text I have read, the answers are there if you are searching for them, but if you are not searching for them they are just disjointed, ill-described events that mean nothing. No insult of course, I just say it like I see it.

[Dayman]

Prophesies are real easy to make appear true, especially after the fact.

[Mansa musa]

Prophesies are real easy to make appear true, especially after the fact.

i knew you were going to say that. the problem is that this prophecy specifically says what's going to happen in what time frame it's going to happen. where it's going to happen (in the lowest of places). specifically who the parties are going to be and who's involved. This prophecy is also backed up by the hadith in wich Abu bakr made a bet with a bet with Ubay ibn Khalaf, a Meccan polytheist. he predicted it would happen in 3 years. But Mohammad corrected him and said between 3 and 9 years.

[Dayman]

You know, for someone who only needs faith in Allah, you sure come up with some crappy evidence. Doubting?

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Mansa Musa, we all know that the Quran didn't exist until several decades after the death of Mohammed, and possibly not in its present form. So I really doubt this can be even called a "prophecy", instead of a "review of historical things".