Roman Rump States Mod

**Bleda** · December 26, 2007, 11:22 AM

Is anyone aware of any quality mod based on the late roman period in which there are several "Roman Factions" or rump states. For instance, the Gallic Empire was a Roman rump state that coexisted in loose association with the legitimate Roman Ceasarii and Augustii. Something along the lines of when the empire was de facto run by 4 or more regional leaders, i.e. a the "Prefecture of Britania", "Magister Militum in Gaul", "Prefecture of Aegyptus" (Egypt). Sort of like the vanilla form of RTW with several Roman factions vying for a power over weak faction in Rome, which ties them together.

**MasterOfThessus** · December 26, 2007, 11:27 AM

Rump means "ass" in swedish

**Bleda** · December 26, 2007, 11:29 AM

English too. its also a political science term

**Bleda** · December 26, 2007, 11:34 AM

Actually I mean... Think of vanilla RTW, three Roman factions all under the thumb of SPQR, while at the same time competing for dominance in preparation for a show down for ultimate control of the empire. I was hoping for sometihng like that, except done with "RTR style awesomeness" in with an Imperial Household instead of the SPQR. the various factions would all be part of the larger roman state. so the Prefect of Britannia would actually be the leader of his own faction, the Magister Militum would be the faction leader of Romanized Gaul. Each historical region of the empire would essentially be its own de facto state, as it was in this period of the empire.

**Cyrus the Virus** · December 27, 2007, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by MasterOfThessus

Rump means "ass" in swedish

Rumpa

**Pompeius Magnus** · December 28, 2007, 08:58 AM

another of my private made schematics. It shows the civilian part. As we know: In the reign of Gallienus the military part was divided from the civilian part.

**Pompeius Magnus** · December 28, 2007, 09:02 AM

And this one shows the imperial court in the late antique. Also made by myself.

**Quinctius Cincinnatus** · December 26, 2007, 11:28 AM

Don't know what you mean exactly, but look at The First Triumvirate, 77BC and 58BC: CaesarImperator from the FRRE Team.

Q.

**Solaris** · December 26, 2007, 02:27 PM

I know what you mean, that was very very late empire though, with Aetius and all.

**Pompeius Magnus** · December 26, 2007, 02:52 PM

Why don`t you check out the mods like IBFD (410AD), Imperium Julianorum (355AD) and so on... and so on... all of these mods are based on BI. Check out the forum.

In such mods you have the Romano British faction for example. East and west rome and you have the Imperium constantini in gaul.

By the way it doesn`t make sense to give the magister (utriusque) militum the prefecture of gaul, because he was responsible for the complete empire as in the case of stilicho, rikimer or aetius (in the east like Aspar).

**Bleda** · December 26, 2007, 04:40 PM

Great I will check them out!

By the way
The Magister Militum was the Western imperial post that was associated with the military leader who was posted in and operated mainly in Gaul. Aetius was one such leader. It was the prerogative of the Emperor to put the magister militum in a place where military leadership was needed....... Gaul and not Italy. besides, I was giving an example of a possible title for a faction leader. Also, I beielve that the "Imperium Constantini" is a poor choice for a faction. Why include this faction when the more viable, significant, realistic and historically longer lasting "Gallic Empire" could have filled its function.

**Pompeius Magnus** · December 26, 2007, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Bleda

Great I will check them out!

By the way
The Magister Militum was the Western imperial post that was associated with the military leader who was posted in and operated mainly in Gaul. Aetius was one such leader. It was the prerogative of the Emperor to put the magister militum in a place where military leadership was needed.

No. Thats wrong. Do you know what exactly a Mag. Militum is? It seems not. The magister militum combines the 2 services in one person. The 2 services were the magister peditum praesentalis and the magister equitum praesentalis. These were members of the emperors consistorium. the royal court.

After the reforms of Thedosius the great the 2 services were combined (not always, but more and more) and were called Magister utriusque Militae in the west and mag. mil. praesentalis in the east.
This office was not specialized on a special area. This mag. militum was the commander-in-chief of the central field army. nothing else.

The responsible person in gaul was mostly the magister equitum per galliam (or gallias).
That Aetius name is called several times in combination with gaul is very easy: Here we find traditionally the most heavy barbarian invasions. Here we find the invasion of Atilla.
When Atilla invaded north Italy we find Aetius in the province Illyria. He came with troops of the east roman empire. Here you find the evidence that the magistrii operated in "all" provinces.
Thats all. He was responsible for the complete empire. One of his collegues Flavius Felix for example was stationed always near of gala Placidia. In Italy.
And Aspar, in the east!!, moves from the Danube area to Orient and vice versa. Because also here the mag mili. praesentalis was resonsible for the central (praesentalis) field army.

If you have further questions to the late antique you just push in my signature on the term "late roman army". Here I wrote down all my knowledge. I think that will help you.

**Coni** · December 27, 2007, 12:46 PM

Your work is amazing Pompeius.

I checked out your page several times before.

**Pompeius Magnus** · December 27, 2007, 01:11 PM

Thanx Coni

I want give an update:
It is possible that the User Bleda means the specialized magistrii for the praetorian prefectures. This men we find from time to time.
There was a magister militum per galliae (very very rare)
we find a magister militum per Illyricum (very often)
a magister militum per Thracias (often)
and a magister militum per orientem (nearly always).

These offices were limited to the special region.
But: These men had always a lower rank than the magister utriusque militae (west) or the magister militum praesentalis (east).

For better understanding. This is my schematic from the late antique thread.

**Pompeius Magnus** · December 28, 2007, 09:12 AM

And due to all these facts a dividing (suggested by Bleda) doesn't make sense.
His suggestion was:
"4 or more regional leaders, i.e. a the "Prefecture of Britania", "Magister Militum in Gaul", "Prefecture of Aegyptus" (Egypt). "

I tried to illustrate now that the Praetorian prefectures were civilians!! They came direct behind the emperor, they also had a royal court and it was allowed for them to wear the purple dress! But they were civilians and had no military power. They were protected by the Candidati and some of them had a small bucelarii army, but that's all.
The real power was in the hands of the magistii militae.

And here I tried to explain that the real power was not in the hand of the magister militum per galliam or magister militum per orientem (that became a problem in the time of the new tagmata-system). Here the real power was in the hand of the magister (utriusque) militae!!! He had the highest rank of viri illustres. But he was responsible for the complete empire and not only for gaul or for africa.

As I said before: If somebody has interests in the extremly complex military and civilian parts of the roman empire concerning the late antique (totally different to earlier times and much more complex!) just click on my signature "the late roman army".

**Coni** · December 28, 2007, 05:33 PM

I know your schematics from the late roman army guide. Amazing

**Marcion** · December 28, 2007, 09:40 PM

...well couldn't an ambitious praetorian have a magister militum or two under his thumb (or vice versa)? Corruption was rampant in Rome in the later years and it's not hard to imagine someone with the ambition of carving out a state of his own. But of course this would completely break with history, and RTW's diplomacy model is far, far too simplistic to go anywhere near actual regional politics.

**Pompeius Magnus** · December 29, 2007, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Marcion

...well couldn't an ambitious praetorian have a magister militum or two under his thumb (or vice versa)? Corruption was rampant in Rome in the later years and it's not hard to imagine someone with the ambition of carving out a state of his own. But of course this would completely break with history, and RTW's diplomacy model is far, far too simplistic to go anywhere near actual regional politics.

No.
You can be sure that this never happened in history with a civilan praetorian prefect.
Even the senat had no military power since the reign of emperor gallienus.
Usurpers were nealry always military persons. Several times it was a magister militum, a german one. But the late antique was a time with a strong dynastic thinking. That means that even this german military leader had no right to be emperor. In the case of Alaric he "made" his own emperor. It was Attalus in this case.
In one point you are right. RTW is too simple to simulate the full spectrum of the extremly complicated late antique. On the other side you can simulate much more than some people can imagine. Not everything is hardcoded.

But back to the topic: there was no seperate faction led by an praetorian prefect.