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Thread: Reliability of the Gospels

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  1. #1

    Default Reliability of the Gospels

    No one knows for certain when Jesus died, but everyone agrees that it was sometime around 30 CE. In addition... most historians think that Mark was the first of our Gospels to be written, sometime between the mid-60s to early 70s. Matthew and Luke were probably produced some ten or fifteen years later, perhaps around 80 or 85. John was written perhaps ten years after that, 90 or 95. These are necessarily rough estimates, but almost all scholars agree within a few years.

    Perhaps the most striking thing about these dates for the historian is the long interval between Jesus’ death and the earliest accounts of his life. Our first written narratives of Jesus appear to date from thirty-five to sixty-five years after the fact. Thirty-five to sixty-five years. This perhaps does not seem like a long time; after all, these books and Jesus all come from the first century.

    But think about it in modern terms. For the shortest interval, this would be like having the first written record of John F. Kennedy’s presidency appear today, thirty-five years after the fact (the gap between Jesus and Mark). Imagine having no other written records — for example, no newspaper or magazine articles to go on, but simply oral traditions! For the longest interval, between Jesus and John, it would be like having stories of a famous preacher from the height of the Great Depression, say 1935, show in print for the first time this week.
    Interesting stuff. Just thought I'd share and spark discussion.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Not to mention the Gnostic Gospels, which somewhere along the way lost their place in the canonical Bible. We have fragments of the Gospel of Thomas and of Judas. The fact that all the gospels are so late after Jesus' death and that there was clearly conflict of the truth of the story of his life makes the gospels incredibly dubious materials to believe.

  3. #3
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Even my Theology classes admitted the Gospels where of dubious reliability historically, they just copped out by claiming the "message was still true".

  4. #4

    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    John i believe is one of the most truthful
    How great is he who gains the world but loses their soul? :hmmm:

  5. #5
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Axum View Post
    John i believe is one of the most truthful
    Actually out of all of them, Luke is supposed to be. John's is more poetic and more focused on the prophesies.

    None of them are really "truthful". None of the gospel writers knew Jesus, so perhaps some of the sayings attributed to him are, but I'm sure a lot of it isn't.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post
    Actually out of all of them, Luke is supposed to be. John's is more poetic and more focused on the prophesies.

    None of them are really "truthful". None of the gospel writers knew Jesus, so perhaps some of the sayings attributed to him are, but I'm sure a lot of it isn't.
    I understand what u mean when u say poetry for john however when one reads chapter one he/she will immediately get a clear view of whom Jesus was.
    How great is he who gains the world but loses their soul? :hmmm:

  7. #7

    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Axum View Post
    I understand what u mean when u say poetry for john however when one reads chapter one he/she will immediately get a clear view of whom Jesus was.
    That is tantamount to saying that reading Fahrenheit 9/11 will give you a clear view on how evil George W. Bush is.


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    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
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    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Come on. Since the 19th century theologes have showed again and again that the gospels are NOT reliable historic materials.

    Want an example? Jezus' birth place. When Jezus had died, nobody even knew where he was born. But according to the prophecies, the Messiah HAD TO BE born in Bethlemen. But how did they get him there?
    Luke and Matteus came up with some really smart answers.

    Matteus says that Maria and Joseph were living in Bethlehem all the time.
    They only moved to Nazareth after Jezus death. They had fled Egypt, where king Herodes was killing people left and right.
    Luke, on the other hand, says Joseph went to Nazareth after fleeing Egypt, and Joseph had to go to Bethlemen for the "counting of David's offspring in David's town (Bethlemen)". This is of course bullcrap, because David lived at least 1000 years earlier. Why the hell would the Romans want to count his offspring at that point?
    However, historical sources have shown that there was a people counting in the neighbourhood, but this was in the year 6 AD. And by that time, Herodes was long gone.

    Both tales are historically impossible.
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    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    They'll get an immediate view of whoever John was thought Jesus was, since he didn't know him.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Reliability of the Gospels
    None whatsoever.

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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    You're right tankbuster. The census was carried out under Quirinius, in about AD6 or 7 when Jesus, born supposedly under Herod (approx. 4BC), was about 11 years old.

    Also, the descendants of David who would have had to go to Bethlehem to sign up would have numbered in the hundreds of thousands or even millions. David and Solomon had many, many wives, and their offspring would have been huge in number, especially the number of generations that had passed. The story is completely invented by later gospel writers in order to fit Jesus in with Old Testament prophecy, by having the Messiah born in Bethlehem.

    Jesus was most probably born in Nazareth.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Precisely. The message of Christianity is unaltered and I do not see why people struggle so much to come to terms with these simple facts.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Precisely. The message of Christianity is unaltered and I do not see why people struggle so much to come to terms with these simple facts.
    Maybe it's because the story of the First Christmas is so ingrained in people's minds?

    Or maybe people begin to wonder: if that isn't true, than is this true?


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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    I'm reading a book by a Bishop who has analyzed the NT through Jewish eyes. It seems half the damned story was an invention to fit Jesus in with Jewish prophecy. From the existence of Judah and Joseph, to Mary's virgin birth, to Jesus' birth........The progressive change in stories can be seen once the chronological order of the books is established, and they are compared.

    **** it's pissing me off reading this insider information that academic clergy have known for years, if not centuries, but never passed on to the layman

    As this bishop said: "Any god who cannot be questioned or challenged should be killed. In fact, such a god is already dead."

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    Marcion's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    I'm reading a book by a Bishop who has analyzed the NT through Jewish eyes. It seems half the damned story was an invention to fit Jesus in with Jewish prophecy. From the existence of Judah and Joseph, to Mary's virgin birth, to Jesus' birth........The progressive change in stories can be seen once the chronological order of the books is established, and they are compared.

    **** it's pissing me off reading this insider information that academic clergy have known for years, if not centuries, but never passed on to the layman

    As this bishop said: "Any god who cannot be questioned or challenged should be killed. In fact, such a god is already dead."
    Your average priest will never spill this kind of thing because it seriously undermines the principle of dogmatic faith. The very reason why I rejected Christianity and its dogma is precisely because I learned how skewed and corrupted it had become over the centuries to fit petty human interest. How can it possibly be "God's" church when people create total fiction to encourage Jewish conversion, or bend the whole faith to fit a totalitarian society?

    Priests won't often openly discuss this but plenty of scholars have been talking about it for years... Of course such things won't make a dent on many people who have wisely been conditioned to dismiss such things as "heresy."

  16. #16

    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    I'm reading a book by a Bishop who has analyzed the NT through Jewish eyes. It seems half the damned story was an invention to fit Jesus in with Jewish prophecy. From the existence of Judah and Joseph, to Mary's virgin birth, to Jesus' birth........The progressive change in stories can be seen once the chronological order of the books is established, and they are compared.

    **** it's pissing me off reading this insider information that academic clergy have known for years, if not centuries, but never passed on to the layman

    As this bishop said: "Any god who cannot be questioned or challenged should be killed. In fact, such a god is already dead."
    You can't blame them. Give the peasants information and you will produce people like me, educated agnostics/atheists. We eat faiths. We make it hard to pay for stained glass windows, purple robes and golden cups.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Self-fulfilling prophecies, I suppose.


    And they said we were crazy to believe the Gospel wasn't Jesus's original message.

  18. #18
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    You see, people who are quick to believe are as funny as those who are quick to disbelieve.

    The problem is with quickness, not the rest.

    Take it as an encouragement to study. Study always helps. Then, I can tell you, the Lord is not sparing with counsel and guidance. Personal one.

  19. #19
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    You can't blame them. Give peasants information and you will produce an age like this one, where everyone thinks he knows, but knowledge is at its lowest.

    They make it hard for themselves and everyone else, and they think they are liberators from oppression.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Reliability of the Gospels

    Unlike people who choose the word 'illuminati', as their avatar, of course.

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