Billmen

[Vasquez]

Look I am a relative n00b around here so I don't mean to tread on anybodies toes, but what are your thoughts on the SS version of Billmen? I played LTC extensively as the English and they became my utility troops that could do everything from take a wall to standing in line and slugging it out with non sword armed infantry, and doing it well. This time around I am finding Billmen to be something of a non event. They don't seem to hack their way through lesser units like they did in LTC. Do they still have the AP stat with the Billhook That I think Lusted gave them in LTC do you know?

[shubumpkin]

I just checked in the descr_unit file and they still have the AP attribute in their primary attack. I agree with you though they are paltry in this version of the game - as are both voulgiers and haldberdiers also.

[Sarpedon]

I agree in full. The way they are now, especially with no armor, they are little more than peasants or highlanders, they get mauled by charges and then don't have any attack power to retaliate against cav. infantry is the same.

Especially since the Voulgiers suffer from the same problem it shows some sever weakness in the French unit roster. French have become very blah in SS, standard (non-pavise) crossbows, no musketeers, standard slew of infantry. (You do get the archers and mounted cav. but not until late in the game)
But the kicker is that there is very little difference between good cavalry in this mod. Feudal Knights are not that different from Chivalric knights and then Lancers, there is only a difference of 4 between mounted seargent charge and the supposed paragon of heavy cavalry's charge.
By taking the edge off French cavalry and the voulge, France has has been cast into a fairly mediocre spot.

[Point Blank]

Voulge (and all 2H weapons) get a boost in next RC version. Voulge especially will be noticable versus infantry.

Billmen units are vulnerable to cav charges in M2TW because their weapons do not have spear attribute. They are good in melee versus cav.

I think Noble Knights should be returned to French Cav roster, however, as they are riding mailed horses and bridge the gap somewhat between Chivalrics and Lancers/Gendarmes.

Factors influencing charge also include lance/spear attack value (obviously), and mount mass, which is 1.5 times as great for Lancers as Mounted Sergeants, and charging unit's armor value etc. Charge attack value could perhaps be improved for Heavy Cav such as Lancers but a charge value going from 8 to 12 is not 50% better, in practice it works out more than that.

Do some trials, there are many factors at work here

[Sarpedon]

Thanks PB,
I am not fully versed in the statistics of a full charge, a quick glance at the numbers is what these opinions are based on, well that and me being in the middle of a French campaign and wanting a serious, selfish and devastating advantage wherever I can get it.
Back to base though, Bills and Voulges were a lot of fun but now seem to be little more than warm-bodies on the battlefield, more so for billmen.

Appreciate the update!

[Vasquez]

Hey PB, is your RC mod incorporated in SS? If not where do I get it dude?

[Point Blank]

Yes it is already but there is a new version I am working on.

[the42up]

2 handed melee in general is fairly lackluster in SS. But yes I do agree, billmen and the worst of the worse. No armor, no attack, mauled by heavy cav... the list just goes on and on.

Janissaries are also a unit that is near and dear to my heart that got royally stomped on in the current version of SS.

[Point Blank]

2 handed melee in general is fairly lackluster in SS. But yes I do agree, billmen and the worst of the worse. No armor, no attack, mauled by heavy cav... the list just goes on and on.

Janissaries are also a unit that is near and dear to my heart that got royally stomped on in the current version of SS.

OK, some examples of who they should beat/be beaten by please

Also, don't only look at the attack value. That also interacts with the attack speed and more importantly the animation used. However, unarmored Billmen are really only doing a worthwhile job if in melee vs cavalry, or vs more heavily armored opponents where their AP attribute makes them likely to cause more costly losses in their opponents. They should be used to flank and/or charge engaged opponents, not receive heavy cavalry charges. Or missile fire. Or most things actually

[the42up]

perhaps my perception of them is a bit off to how they were in reality due to perceiving them as how they were in the first medieval.

Medieval 1, janissaries were only rivaled by varangarian guard. Janissaries were the top infantry.


Yeah I know that was a bit... off. But they really feel out of place. In that I mean they have no real defined roll in a battle. They incur many casualties, they have about the offensive punch of sword/board fighters (due to the fact that they lose offensive power at a much quicker rate from loss of men), and as far as using them as flankers, I have not noticed much of a difference.


For troops that can be considered to be some of the best of the medieval world...I find them to be lacking in the face of the sword and board foot knights of the western christian states.

[Point Blank]

Yes in Med 1 they were king of the hill.

In new version of RC they have +1 defense. They also have better mental stats than western knights and are far better versus cavalry in melee. Upgrading their armor makes them much more effective also. But I agree with you about them lacking a really defined role on the battlefield. They are generally very effective but not at any one specific role.

[the42up]

thats true, they do many things well but excel at few.

It seems odd that the dismounted hasham is the bread and butter infantry of the turks rather than the janissary heavy.

I mean if I wanted an anti cav unit, I would just use dismounted sipahi's in my army. Atleast with them, they dont crumble and die to a charge and they dont require a teched up city/can be trained in forts with the rest of the force.

Even from a charge from western knights on foot, janissary heavy will lose roughly 15% of their force. This just seems so...I dont know.



I wish there were such a stat as charge resistance. B/c after the charge, janissaries hold their own. Its just that they get behind on the initial charge and just cant catch up.

[Point Blank]

thats true, they do many things well but excel at few.

It seems odd that the dismounted hasham is the bread and butter infantry of the turks rather than the janissary heavy.

I mean if I wanted an anti cav unit, I would just use dismounted sipahi's in my army. Atleast with them, they dont crumble and die to a charge and they dont require a teched up city/can be trained in forts with the rest of the force.

Even from a charge from western knights on foot, janissary heavy will lose roughly 15% of their force. This just seems so...I dont know.



I wish there were such a stat as charge resistance. B/c after the charge, janissaries hold their own. Its just that they get behind on the initial charge and just cant catch up.

Versus Chivalric Knights, the charge will be
JHI: 6AP attack, 6 Charge, 5 armor, 6 defense
CK: 7 attack, 4 Charge, 9 armor, 6 defense, 6 shield

therefore:
JHI 12 attack versus 16.5 defense
Chiv 11 attack versus 11 defense

So the shield is helping the CK do well in the charge, since all attacks are coming directly from the front. In a prolonged melee the shield has a lot less value since attacks are coming from all angles.

The only real way to use a halberd in a charge would be as a thrusting weapon. An overhead swing would be of questionable value, and there wouldn't be enough room for a horizontal swing. Halberds were not often used that way in any case. So, versus the knights, armored head to toe and further covered by a large shield, there would be very few openings. By contrast, the knights can bash with the shield, or deflect the oncoming halberd and then move in on its wielder, and the sword is small enough to be swung or to thrust, versus an opponent wearing only a light mail shirt. In fact the JHI would do better in melee than charging.

Its perhaps another balance vs 'realism' issue.

All polearm and pike units also have 50% extra mass. Once in melee the JHI will beat the knights almost every time. And the knights cost more too.

[Empwill]

I also agree with the lackluster performance of the billmen and other polearm units, but I put my trust in PB in fixing it as only PB can. My only true criticism of the polearm troops that I think should be taken into actual consideration is the overabundance of billmen. There are billmen, militial billmen, heavy billmen, and heavy militia billmen; which I think might be two too many billmen units. Why not just start the billmen units with a leather armor upgrade and then the units could be upgraded all the way to partial plate and viola, you get billmen and heavy billmen in one unit. then you only need billmen and militia billmen, therefore opening up two more unit slots that can be used by KK for the even better unit development in the new upcoming factions. I hope I am not just repeating what someone has stated before, but here is my opinion.

[Fenix_120]

I modded my game to wear they start out with 5 armor, but use only the chain mail model(upgrade 2) and get no armor upgrades (a medium bill men if you will) and left the bill militia normal old unarmored types.


Its much better now, they are not super-uber units but they can now take on spear militia with ease.

[gary]

In the stat.....export_descr_unit can some one tell me how i ajust the Armour and charge and atack.... with bilman and other two handed units?

[Sidmen]

I disagree, I say we should have billmen and heavy billmen. And have them recruit able in both cities and castles.

[Inhuman One]

It still surprises me that they found so many guys in england called Bill at the time. Must have been a popular name. They even had weight classes for them, Billmen and heavy Billmen.
I am sure they send the king quite a bill for their services.

[Point Blank]

I am not sure what everyone is expecting from the polearm units. They are useful for cracking armor and against cavalry, and have some utility against pikes, but I am not sure where the perception comes from that they should just be carving up all other infantry. Against lightly-armored infantry a sword and shield combo is better, for example.

Will do some more balance testing anyway.

[delra]

This is all because most of them come later in game from expensive barracks in big cities. So they are expected to be much more than standard spear militias... And apparently they aren't.