Mongol invasion

[Otsman]

when the mongols invade under Genghis Khan, will there be the whopping 16, 20 garrison armies like in the vanilla, or will they be smaller? (genghis used small, elite armies that did not need a supply train, but when Helegu invaded, he called one tenth of all fighting mongols to his side and it took him three years to reach baghdad.)

[Miraj]

There will be a large number of stacks. Not because its historically accurate. But because the way the game auto-calcs battles the mongols will need more stacks to be a real danger and to be able to sweep in.

I will also direct a group of stacks to attack key cities around the spawn point and keep attacking until they take them. Otherwise they usually wander around like total idiots.

[Otsman]

thanks

-hope all goes well for you guys until finish, i've been watching this mod grow since it started and have itching to play it.

[Burnum]

Question, will Mongols be pagan or Muslim?

[Ahiga]

Pagan. Historically they were a myriad of faiths but pretty much Pagan in terms of the official faith, and I believe it was only the Ilkhanate which became Muslim.

[Burnum]

Pagan. Historically they were a myriad of faiths but pretty much Pagan in terms of the official faith, and I believe it was only the Ilkhanate which became Muslim.

yeah, I recall that they seemed heavily influenced by Nestorian Christians.

[persianfan247]

Pagan. Historically they were a myriad of faiths but pretty much Pagan in terms of the official faith, and I believe it was only the Ilkhanate which became Muslim.

I'm pretty sure the chagatai khanate and the golden horde became muslim as well and for some reason people always seem to think Tamerlane come from the Ilkanate when he infact came from the chagatai

[Shadowcry]

Not heavily influenced I would say though a large minority of them professed Nestorian Christianity.

[Miraj]

The Naiman subset of the Mongol confederacy was almost totally nestorian christian. Quite unique among the Mongol tribes.

[AdmiringtheEnemyeh?]

Wow, i didn't know Christianity spread that far by the 13th century.

[IrAr]

Also, Kitbuka, Kuchluk (I think he was Naiman) and I remember something about Subutei, though that is probably iffy at best.

[Boztorgai_Khan]

Also, Kitbuka, Kuchluk (I think he was Naiman) and I remember something about Subutei, though that is probably iffy at best.

Subutei ( Subutai ) was Shamanist.

Yep, Kitbuga was Nestorian Christian and Kuchluk too and Kuchluk was from Naiman tribe.

[Shadowcry]

In the end most of the Mongols themselves were shamanistic. As even when they did convert to other religions like Buddhism in China or The Early Ilkhanate and Chaghatai Khanate or Islam they only nominally changed religion and still continued to practice their own beliefs and customs until they were totally assimilated into their conquered societies. However Nestorian Christianity did much to influence several Mongol rulers namely Hulegu whose wife was Christian and Noyan who had a rebellion in Manchuria against Khubilai. Overall Mongol religious policy was that of almost total religious freedom with few worshipers being persecuted solely for their religious beliefs. Over time several of the Royal family patronized different religions perhaps for political drive or for genuine interest one could never know.

[Fenix_120]

I am pretty sure that the Mongols who became the golden horde remained pagan or converted to orthodox Christian thanks to Russain influence, I think they even went to war with other Mongols who converted to Islam though I do not know if this is true or not:hmmm:

[Miraj]

I am pretty sure that the Mongols who became the golden horde remained pagan or converted to orthodox Christian thanks to Russain influence, I think they even went to war with other Mongols who converted to Islam though I do not know if this is true or not:hmmm:

Actually thats exactly the total opposite of real history.

The first mongols to sincerely and passionately embrace Islam was in fact the Golden Horde under Berke Khan. Most of his troops were Turkic tribes like Kypchaks and were Muslims anyways or loosely pagan. Remember that the Russians were not a powerful or influential force on the steppe at this time. So if the pagans of the Russian steppe were to convert to any religion, it would be Islam. The Volga Bulgars are another good example of that.

The Mongol group that was the most anti-Muslim in the early era were the Ilkhanate under Hulagu based in Persia. They were the ones that sacked and exterminated Baghdad. Hulagu was enormously influenced by his Nestorian Christian wife who had a pretty huge grudge against anything Muslim. The Ilkhanate for a while was actually quite oppressive and intolerant towards Islam, and attempted to impose Shamanist and Buddhist faiths in Persia.

Berke Khan of the Golden Horde was so enraged by Hulagu's killing of the Caliph - at this time this was a pretty real and central figure for Sunni Muslims - that he allied with the Mamluks and declared war on Hulagu. He launched a invasion led by his general Nogai Khan through the Caucusus to divert Hulagu away from Muslim Egypt, the last bastion of independent Sunni Islam (aside from Rum and India). This was the first time Mongols had open and total warfare with each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berke-Hulagu_war

[Fenix_120]

Ahh, seems like I was wrong.

But I knew the Mongols went to war with one another over religion I just could not remember why and where(or who for that matter )

[Shadowcry]

The Mongols in the Golden horde converted to Islam and Berke had a war against Hulagu whose cause could be attributed to religious differneces though not much.

[Salah-ud-Din]

Although, for the record, most Muslims did not have much respect for the caliph that was killed by Hulagu.

In fact, there's a popular tradition: Hulagu asked some of the learned men of Baghdad what the fate of the Caliph should be.

They recommended death.

The last Abbasid Caliph was little more than a weak puppet, controlled by Muslim Turkish leaders. The only region over which he did have strong control of at the time of the Mongol invasion was a small area around Baghdad.

By this time, most of the power had been transferred to powerful (and pious) Turkish warlords.

In the end, most Mongols around Islamic regions converted to Islam.

I guess that's the beauty of true Islam, it always conquers the hearts of those it touches...

[jermagon]

Although, for the record, most Muslims did not have much respect for the caliph that was killed by Hulagu.

In fact, there's a popular tradition: Hulagu asked some of the learned men of Baghdad what the fate of the Caliph should be.

They recommended death.

The last Abbasid Caliph was little more than a weak puppet, controlled by Muslim Turkish leaders. The only region over which he did have strong control of at the time of the Mongol invasion was a small area around Baghdad.

By this time, most of the power had been transferred to powerful (and pious) Turkish warlords.

In the end, most Mongols around Islamic regions converted to Islam.

I guess that's the beauty of true Islam, it always conquers the hearts of those it touches...

well the last Abbasid Caliph was weak and stupid but he wasn't a puppet as you mentioned in your post.the Abbasid caliphate took it's independence in 1136 when caliph Al-Muqtafi defeated Mahmoud sultan of the Seljuks,actually Almustasim bellah -the last caliph- was coward and he put all his confidence in his vizier -who was a traitor by the way- the caliph had all the powers, and he controlled central and southern Iraq not only Baghdad as you said.and the army -one of the notable generals of that time was Abu bakr son of Al Mustasim- was 100% loyal to him,
the caliph had many winning cards but he was Coward and he underestimated the Mongols,and being the caliph of Muslims made him convinced that no enemy shall destroy his realm,and when he sent a message to hulagu provoking him and threating him saying ''Iam the caliph of Muslims,if ever invaded the caliphate,I'll declare jihad against you and millions of Muslims will come to fight you'',the caliph neither raised his army nor fortified his walls. and by the way the late Abbasid army wasn't that bad,actually it did a great part in the battle of Anbar,in this battle the Mongols fought the Abbasid army led by general Mujahed-adin near Anbar,the Abbasids defeated the Mongols and forced them to flee,during night the chinese engineers in the Mongolian army destroyed the dams on the dejla river,the river flooded and destroyed the camps of the Abbasids,most of the Muslim soldiers drowned,the survivors were either killed or enslaved by the Mongols.after the Battle the Mongols reached western Baghdad unopposed.
about the turkish warlord,I admit that the Abbasid army was very turkish and used seljuk strategies (horse archers),but the caliph was the commander of the army he appoints the generals and the officers not vice versa,after the reforms of caliph al-muqtafi 1138,and caliph Al-Mustansir,the caliph army was stable and directly controlled by the caliph,I remember when Caliph An-Nasir waged war against Alaa-adin Khwarezmshah,the caliph sent 10,000 soldiers commanded by his Vizier Ali ibn Qasab,this campaign was very successful,he captured Al ahwaz,Isfahan,Hamadan,the campaign failed when Ibn qasab died of natural causes in Hamadan,the Khwarezmian army defeated the Abbasids and pushed them of out of the Iranian plateau.

[HIC SVNT LEONES]

They also, the ones that converted, were not entirely considered to be pious, and fully following of the Sharia and Islam. I wonder if it would be possible to make a secular faction? lol. They seem more secular, than anyone? Maybe include them to be faithless, but have traits showing whatever religion they were in. The generals themselves.