The First Christmas: Christian Perspective

**The Good** · December 23, 2007, 01:40 AM

Greetings fellow members of Total War Center!

Let me tell you a story. It is not just a story. This really happened in history. This is the account of how the First Christmas ever started.

The First Christmas

In the city of Galilee, there was a small town named Nazareth. There lived a girl called Mary who was promised in marriage to a descendant of King David named Joseph.

Later, angel Gabriel was sent by God to speak to Mary,
"Mary, God has been gracious to you. You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High God. God will make him a king, as the king of the descendants of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end!"

Mary said to the angel, "I am a virgin. How , then, can this be?"

The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and God's power will rest upon you.For this reason the holy child will be called the son of God. There is not a thing that God cannot do."

"I am the Lord's servant," said Mary; "may it happen to me as you have said." And the angel left her.

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to disgrace Mary publicly, was minded to break the engagement secretly. But while he was thinking about this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying,

"Joseph, descendant of David, do not fear to take Mary to be your wife. For it is by the Holy Spirit that she has conceived.She will give birth to son, and you will name him
Jesus(*): for he will save his people from their sins."

Now all this happened in order to fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet,

"The virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and he will be called Emmanuel, which means God is with us."

So when Joseph woke up he did what the angel had told him and married Mary.

At that time Emperor Augustus sent out an order for all the citizens of the Empire to register themselves for the census. Everyone, then went to register himself, each to his own town.

Joseph went from the town of Nazareth, in Galilee, to Judea, to the town named Bethlehem, where King David was born.

Joseph went there because he was a descandant of David. He went to register himself with Mary, who was promised in marriage to him. She was pregnant, and while they were in Bethlehem, the time came for her to give birth.

As there were so many people going back to their hometown for registration, Joseph and Mary could find no room for them in the inn. Then they came to a manger where Mary gave birth to her first son, Jesus.

And in the same country there were shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. An angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them. They were terribly afraid, but the angel said to them,

"Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger."

And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host singing praises to God,

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men."

When the angels went away from them back into heaven, the shepherds said to one another,

"Let us go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, that the Lord has told us."

So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and saw the baby lying in the manager. When the shepherds saw him they told them what the angel had said about this child. All who heard it were filled with wonder at what the shepherds told them. Mary rmembered all these things and thought deeply about them.

The shepherds went back, singing praises to God for all they had heard and seen;
it had just as the angel had told them.

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of King Herod ,
there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying,
"Where is the baby born to be the king of the Jews? For we saw his star came
up in the east, and we have come to worship him."

When King Herod heard about these he was very troubled, and so was everyone else in Jerusalem . He called together all the chief priests and the teachers of the Law and asked them, :Where will the Messiah be born?"

"In the town of Bethlehem, in Judea," they answered. "This is what the prophet wrote:

"And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda:for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel."

Then Herod called the wise men secretly and found out from them the exact time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said,

"Go and search carefully for the young child; and when you find him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also."
Then they departed and on thier way they saw the star--the same one they had seen in the east--and it went ahead of them until it came and stopped over the place where the child was.

When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. And when they went into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother. They knelt down and worshipped him; then they opened their bags of treasures, offered him gifts: gold, myrrh and frankincense.

God warned them in a dream not to go back to Herod; so they went back to their country by another road.

And this is how we Christians have our Saviour today. He went on to die for the sins of mankind; and through Jesus, we are forgiven if we ask of him. This is the true meaning of Christmas...

Finally, I would like to wish all of you here a Merry Christmas! I hope your Christmas this year is wonderful.

(*: Jesus was really called Yoshua, or Yeshua in his time. The reason many people today call him Jesus, is because the Greeks translated Yoshua as Iesous, the Romans translated it as Iesus, and the French speaking Normans, when they invaded England, carried on the tradition of calling him Iesus, however, the letter I developed to become the letter J we use today in the name Jesus.)

**Richard** · December 23, 2007, 02:20 AM

Then why the hell do we insist on calling him Jesus? Same for his mother Maryām and that fellow called Yosef.

**The Good** · December 23, 2007, 02:22 AM

Good question. Some Biblical names are interesting examples of Latinization, Hellenization, or even Anglisization (by the King James version perhaps?). Nevertheless, we are refering to the same people, despite the name differences. An example of the Anglisization of certain Biblical names, is the name John, which was translated from the Latin Ioannes, translated from the Greek Ioannou, which in turn came from the Hebrew word (I don't remember that one).

**Richard** · December 23, 2007, 02:25 AM

It is interesting isn't it; some have gone through several translations through various languages, and yet others remain in the original Hebrew, Greek or Latin.

In fact with Jesus, 'Joshua' would be the direct English translation. 'Jesus', as you have said, is the English translation of several other translations.

**Dayman** · December 23, 2007, 03:07 AM

This really happened in history.

Wrong. I can point out quite a few reasons why not, but, you'll ignore them.

**karo** · December 23, 2007, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Boeing

Wrong. I can point out quite a few reasons why not, but, you'll ignore them.

Thats what you get from people who take religieus books as history.

**Dayman** · December 23, 2007, 08:22 AM

To be honest, this is really the first time I read a Christmas narrative since I renounced my faith, and holy crap is it ridiculous.

**~~removeduser_487563287433~~** · December 23, 2007, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Lucius Julius

Greetings fellow members of Total War Center!

Let me tell you a story. It is not just a story. This really happened in history.

No it didn't.

The First Christmas

In the city of Galilee, there was a small town named Nazareth. There lived a girl called Mary who was promised in marriage to a descendant of King David named Joseph.

It is unlikely that Joseph was a decendant of King David, and was probably later invented to give more credibility to Jesus by early Christians. Early Christians had to combat the accusation they had shamed their ancestors by abandoning their traditional religion and inventing new beliefs, so often tried to link Jesus with Jewish heroes.

Later, angel Gabriel was sent by God to speak to Mary,
"Mary, God has been gracious to you. You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High God. God will make him a king, as the king of the descendants of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end!"

Obviously this never happened in history, as angels do not exist.

Mary said to the angel, "I am a virgin. How , then, can this be?"

The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and God's power will rest upon you.For this reason the holy child will be called the son of God. There is not a thing that God cannot do."

Again this did not happen in history. Humans reproduce sexually. If Mary was pregnant it was because one of her eggs had been fertilised with human sperm, presumably during or after sexual intercourse.

"I am the Lord's servant," said Mary; "may it happen to me as you have said." And the angel left her.

If I was fourteen years old, pregnant and living in a society that stoned adulturers I would have gone with this too.

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to disgrace Mary publicly, was minded to break the engagement secretly. But while he was thinking about this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying,

"Joseph, descendant of David, do not fear to take Mary to be your wife. For it is by the Holy Spirit that she has conceived.She will give birth to son, and you will name him
Jesus(*): for he will save his people from their sins."

Now all this happened in order to fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet,

"The virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and he will be called Emmanuel, which means God is with us."

So when Joseph woke up he did what the angel had told him and married Mary.

Again, this did not happen in history, angels do not exist. Perhaps Joseph did have a dream about an angel.

At that time Emperor Augustus sent out an order for all the citizens of the Empire to register themselves for the census. Everyone, then went to register himself, each to his own town.

Joseph went from the town of Nazareth, in Galilee, to Judea, to the town named Bethlehem, where King David was born.

This is simply false. The census was in 6AD after the exile of the final client King of Judea, the son of Herod. Joseph also would not have been obliged to return to his hometown - such a provision would have made the census impossible to carry out.
Joseph went there because he was a descandant of David. He went to register himself with Mary, who was promised in marriage to him. She was pregnant, and while they were in Bethlehem, the time came for her to give birth.

**Dayman** · December 23, 2007, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Ferrets54

Merry Christmas, but say this happened in history one more time and I will laugh in your face.

Anyone who would actually claim it did happen deserves mockery wholeheartedly.

**Ummagumma** · December 23, 2007, 09:20 AM

Nevermind, it keeps him happy, and some folks get enjoyment from debunking it. As it is the season of Santa Claus, Baby Jesus, Pantomimes, sentient Nutcrackers and flying Snowmen can we just let it slide for a week or so?

Happy Christmas, one and all. Health, wealth and happiness to you and your families. It is the season of afternoon drunkenness, and of forgetting just how much project work I'm supposed to be doing......

**The Good** · December 24, 2007, 01:28 PM

Merry Christmas Everyone!

**God-Emperor of Mankind** · December 24, 2007, 04:53 PM

Happy Jul everyone.

**Turbo** · December 25, 2007, 08:38 AM

Thank you for sharing this Lucius.

For you critical people out there -- the thread does say from a Christian perspective so what is up with the negativity?

**~~removeduser_487563287433~~** · December 25, 2007, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Turbo

Thank you for sharing this Lucius.

For you critical people out there -- the thread does say from a Christian perspective so what is up with the negativity?

Perspective cannot change what happened in history.

**ThiudareiksGunthigg** · December 27, 2007, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ferrets54

Perspective cannot change what happened in history.

Exactly. Lucius Julius stated clearly that "This really happened in history." When Ferrets clearly showed that this assertion is impossible (ie something that supposedly happened in AD 6 simply can't also have happened before 4 BC) Lucius Julius did what he always does - he just pretended nothing had happened.

Lucius Julius - please stop making these silly claims about "history" or "evidence". Or if you can't do that, then stop simply ignoring it when your silly claims get trashed. Either support your claims or don't bother making them in the first place.

And stop trying to fall back on "faith". History doesn't care about your "faith". It only cares about evidence. Herod died in 4 BC. Publius Sulpicius Quirinius' census was in AD 6-7. These are facts. You have to explain how Jesus could be born during that census and also during the reign of Herod or you have to admit that these things did NOT "really happen in history".

Which are you going to do?

My guess is that you're going to ignore this post and come back with another thread making claims that are also easily trashed.

Why do you bother?

**basics** · December 28, 2007, 07:44 AM

Lucius Julius,

Pay no heed to these men because in spite of what they say they cannot stop the unstoppable. The birth of Christ was the prelude to the greatest determination made on mankind from the beginning of time until it's end.

That is that the sheep be separated from the goats, the wheat from the chaff, those that will ever know God and those that never will, all to be done at the cross in confirmation of the prophets and God Himself.

Even if an angel came down to face each one with the truth they still wouldn't accept what you and thousands upon thousands throughout history have experience of, that being the wonderful works of God in the lives of believers.

They think that they have knowledge on their side, yet knowledge is one thing and experience another, something they do not know. Despite the answers provided by many eminent scholars who have probably done more study of the subject than them combined, that does not mean a thing to them.

And I have to say this again, notice that most if not all are/were Roman Catholics. Now there must be something somewhere in that. Perhaps the mystical within that was never realised to them therefore accounting for their disappointment yet you will notice their quick support when that religion is questioned.

Be happy that the Lord Jesus Christ is alive and well and in you as you are in Him for there isn't a power in heaven or earth that can separate you from that. No, not all the academics in all history, alive or dead, wise and unwise can separate you from the love of Christ.

**ThiudareiksGunthigg** · December 28, 2007, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by basics

Lucius Julius,

Pay no heed to these men because in spite of what they say they cannot stop the unstoppable. .... [blah blah blah] ... No, not all the academics in all history, alive or dead, wise and unwise can separate you from the love of Christ.

Translation from the Ignorance-speak: "Switch off your brain and learn not to think. Believe like a sheep. The unbelievers will all be tortured for eternity by our loving God. Revel in the knowledge that they will burn in Hell and be sure you don't use your brain."

Great religion you've got there mate.

**God-Emperor of Mankind** · December 25, 2007, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Turbo

For you critical people out there -- the thread does say from a Christian perspective so what is up with the negativity?

Because not all people agree with the christian perspective.

**Captain Blackadder** · December 25, 2007, 05:21 PM

Also this is a sub forum devoted to debating such topics in all my time here I think I have seen two "friendly" threads in this section so putting anything up is asking for someone to disagree with you.