Donation of Constantine & Theocracies

[Exarch]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

the donation of constantine document is a forgery that grants the papacy rome, and pretty much makes te papacy the heirs of the western roman empire.discuss, also

my question is, does the church (any christian church of any denomination) have any right to govern over earthly land ie the vatican state; or have any say in the governing of men ie george pell ahem ahem.
to my knowledge, jesus doesnt say aything about churches and tithes and who u can or cant have sex with
and why do we have some nutty firebrand preachers going on about how america was meant to be a religious christian state in the first place wat with the puritans and all?

[hellheaven1987]

Personally I think it was a counter measue for Lombard invasion of Italy. Vatican was very anxious that Lombard might seize Rome in anytime since most Italy had fallen into their hand; as we know, this Lombard threat would finally turned to a Pope invitation of Charlemagne against Lombard, and the creation of Papal States (Charlemagne was the guy who promised the exist of Papal States).

I would suggest you to watch Barbarian series in History Channel about Lombard, they provide a very good details about Lombard invasion.

my question is, does the church (any christian church of any denomination) have any right to govern over earthly land ie the vatican state; or have any say in the governing of men ie george pell ahem ahem.

Again, it was not decided by Jesus or God that Pope or churchs should govern people, since Jesus would not see that and he probably did not even think about the formation of "church" (Philosophers are usually bad at management). However, it is obviously that human being needs a "leader", and since Catholic church is such a big organization it is common to let highest priests "lead" the church and the protector of whole Catholic teachings.

why do we have some nutty firebrand preachers going on about how america was meant to be a religious christian state in the first place wat with the puritans and all?

Well, we must know that many early immigrants were people who could not be tolerated in their own countries, which contained a large portion of religious refugees. Those refugees were allowed to practice their religion freely in colonies as long as they don't rebel; so, it is not hard to think about it, if a bunch of religious fanatics were sent to a land that allows people freely practice what they believe, what type of religious country they would form later.

The only thing stops US became a Crusade state is probably too many types of religion beliefs... (think about it, if communism was appeared in 1600s what type of country US would be now... USSR??)

Oh, an offtopic, part of reasons of American Revolution was because colonists did not like how British government allowing Quebec to remain Catholic - they thought those French should be facing religion persecution!!!

[Exarch]

[QUOTE]

Personally I think it was a counter measue for Lombard invasion of Italy. Vatican was very anxious that Lombard might seize Rome in anytime since most Italy had fallen into their hand; as we know, this Lombard threat would finally turned to a Pope invitation of Charlemagne against Lombard, and the creation of Papal States (Charlemagne was the guy who promised the exist of Papal States).

interesting

Again, it was not decided by Jesus or God that Pope or churchs should govern people, since Jesus would not see that and he probably did not even think about the formation of "church" (Philosophers are usually bad at management). However, it is obviously that human being needs a "leader", and since Catholic church is such a big organization it is common to let highest priests "lead" the church and the protector of whole Catholic teachings.

the thing is, there's nothing in the bible about abortion or stem cellresearch or priests not being allowed to marry: all that's dogma which is a construct of the church.
and on that note, why is it that prists and monks see themselves as themost authoritative when it comes to 'God's Will'?
much of the scriptures contradict each other, particularly when u compare old and new testaments when it comes to ethics and morality.

Well, we must know that many early immigrants were people who could not be tolerated in their own countries, which contained a large portion of religious refugees. Those refugees were allowed to practice their religion freely in colonies as long as they don't rebel; so, it is not hard to think about it, if a bunch of religious fanatics were sent to a land that allows people freely practice what they believe, what type of religious country they would form later.

wasnt thomas jefferson an atheist, hence the emphasis on seperation of church and state, when the US was created?

The only thing stops US became a Crusade state is probably too many types of religion beliefs... (think about it, if communism was appeared in 1600s what type of country US would be now... USSR??)

it's funny how the US is meant to be secular, and yet much of the population are quite religious. compare that to britain where their head of state is the head of the anglican church, yet it's more secular than the US.
and australia...well if any politician to be attempted to use god in his/her speech they'd be kissing their political career goodbye

[hellheaven1987]

wasnt thomas jefferson an atheist, hence the emphasis on seperation of church and state, when the US was created?

I don't know that, but from certain degree, Atheist is another form of religious belief - a belief that there is no God (who say there needs a God for religion??).

it's funny how the US is meant to be secular, and yet much of the population are quite religious. compare that to britain where their head of state is the head of the anglican church, yet it's more secular than the US.
and australia...well if any politician to be attempted to use god in his/her speech they'd be kissing their political career goodbye

Depends on what you mean "quite religious". I believe it usually contains all types of religions in US, rather than just Protestant faith like late 1800s. Besides, US's role of "religious refugee camp" is never disappeared anytime.

As for nuns, I have to say that I've seen lots of girls who have become nuns, and far more girls join monasteries than men do. However, it's positively a good thing when this happens, so it's not something to complain about.

Not complain, but just feel pity that we lost so many good genes just because of God.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I would say certainly not. Theocracies are in my opinion the single worst form of government, detrimental to human rights, advancement and prosperity. I am willing to make an exception for the Vatican simply because it is so small and has no civilian population.

[Exarch]

so wat'd happen to someone who practiced wicca on vatican soil?
would they themselves be imprisoned? and wouldnt that spark a human rights outrage?

some theocracies can work i suppose, and have worked to create prosperity etc. england is technically a theocracy with the queen as the head of the anglican church, as the japanese emperor was considered a figurehead god who didnt take an active part in national affairs.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Well the Vatican doesn't have a prison service.

[Erwin Rommel]

Hell in the vatican you cant even HAVE a place to worship (other beliefs, build a temple).......it so small its all covered with buildings and walls.........

you might consider it practicing "Wicca" in a church (Vatican)

and another Theocracy........Mount Athos....females are not allowed since its a Monastery Country

[Zenith Darksea]

and another Theocracy........Mount Athos....

Actually it's a semi-independent Republic with a civilian governor appointed by the Greek government, though it's true that there is also a council formed from the leaders of the monasteries. Having said that, there are no secular inhabitants of Mt Athos (the only people who live there permanently, apart from the governor, are monks), so it would be difficult for it to have any secular democracy or other such things.

It's a wonderful place, and I urge everyone to visit it some day. It's much more interesting than a trip to the Vatican, I can tell you!

[Erwin Rommel]

why?? what happened to your trip in Vatican, fed up with latin or just too many beutiful girls turn to nuns (pity me ive seen women so beutiful turning to nuns but hey thats there desicion)

[Zenith Darksea]

What I mean is that not only does Mt Athos have artwork, architecture and relics to easily rival the Vatican (and from a much earlier date as well), but it also has incredibly wise and occasionally cranky Orthodox monks, something that you don't get at all in the Vatican! And there's the fact that I'm Orthodox too - that kind of swung it for me.

As for nuns, I have to say that I've seen lots of girls who have become nuns, and far more girls join monasteries than men do. However, it's positively a good thing when this happens, so it's not something to complain about.

[Dayman]

However, it's positively a good thing when this happens, so it's not something to complain about.

Why is that?

[Erwin Rommel]

well if you have a crush on one then she admits joining the convent yeah some piece of me just died

[hellheaven1987]

well if you have a crush on one then she admits joining the convent yeah some piece of me just died

I guess then you need to prove your love is greater than Gods' love.

I do hear before that some nuns decided to back to civil life after some incidents.

[Erwin Rommel]

yeah quite common but hey its there decision as if they are eternally banned coz of leaving the convent

[hellheaven1987]

yeah quite common but hey its there decision as if they are eternally banned coz of leaving the convent

Then I guess the best choice is to promise her your own land in Hell, with hundred devils as servants.

That works, according to Greek Myth.

[Erwin Rommel]

"Myth"

BTW we are so off topic here!!

[hellheaven1987]

Greek Myth is part of Greek religion, so you can also say it is part of "religious teaching".

I do agree that we are quite far off topic; when did the discussion turn to convert nuns back to civil life??

[Exarch]

back on topic,
i just dont see why any religious group should have legal jurisdiction to any land at all-it opens up so many opportunities for the church to cover things up, if their interests are threatened.

after all, didnt jesus say 'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's'
meaning's clear there.

[Dracula]

back on topic,
i just dont see why any religious group should have legal jurisdiction to any land at all-it opens up so many opportunities for the church to cover things up, if their interests are threatened.

after all, didnt jesus say 'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's'
meaning's clear there.

The question is not religious -contrary to what one may expect - but legal . The freedom of all people grants them the right to acquire land by legal prescripption(or right of usage ) regardless of who they are . Even if they are the satan's servants . This right can be got with 10 years continuous unabrupted usage for yourself . According to the Justinian law - with 70 years .

In most of the cases the Church has been in possession of all the lands for centuries .This exhausts the question ,because the law grants you the land even if you took it by force but owned it for more than 10 years . Such has it been BTW since ancient greek times up to nowadays . It is out of question that this be changed .

As for Donatio Constantini,it matters little .If the force that grants you a donation(in the case the western roman empire) or a land does not exist any more and does not defend your right for more than 1500 years,you loose it . But on the 11th year of its usage after the death of Constantin,the church's estates became completely legal even if it wasn't properly acquired (due to the right of prescription).

BTW the current states everywhere are indifferent to who owns the land . If you wish the religious not to own,this would turn the state into an atheistical dictatorship,which of course cannot be .