Hope more accurate voice commands this time.

[GiorgioIII]

I recently heard the Greek sounds on the original barbarorum and they were hillarious,, nothing to do with Greek. The ending oi in most of the units sounds simply i forget the o.

[Foot]

Well, you know, we use ancient greek, not modern greek. There is a difference you know.

Foot

[Admetos]

First of all, next time you want want to post about the mod, be polite and enquire about your view, not just insult the team. You're obviously new to EB GiorgioIII, because if you weren't then you'd know the lenghts the team go to to ensure EVERYTHING is as near to historical accuracy as possible, and you wouldn't even dream of insulting them and basically slapping them around the face and saying "you're wrong". Well, it'd be intersting to know what kind of qualifications you've got in ancient language. PhD? Major? Because many of the EB team are EXTREMELY qualified and I'm sure they know a world more than you do. It's a pity that this is a public forum, because if it wasn't then maybe I could say what I really think about you after that post, let's just say I'm angered. And I can't imagine how much more angry I'd be if I was on the team, I'm suprised Foot was so polite...

[GiorgioIII]

Sorry if i made you feel like that.And yes i am new to EB . And to answer your question i did ancient Greek 3 years in school (oh yes i am Greek). I didn't mean to insult anyone and i don't even think my post is insulting. I am just saying that even though the units are written historically accurate they don't sound like as they should. Ending oi in modern and ancient Greek is sound simply i. Ending ai is sound like e.That is my opinion and it cannot change, after all this is a freely speaking forum.

[Keravnos]

Sorry if i made you feel like that.And yes i am new to EB . And to answer your question i did ancient Greek 3 years in school (oh yes i am Greek). I didn't mean to insult anyone and i don't even think my post is insulting. I am just saying that even though the units are written historically accurate they don't sound like as they should. Ending oi in modern and ancient Greek is sound simply i. Ending ai is sound like e.That is my opinion and it cannot change, after all this is a freely speaking forum.

Let me give you some links. I saved those just for people like you.

just one,
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...3&postcount=22

[Aru]

I think I may have one little critique.
There was one thureophoroi (doh, something like that, you know what I mean) mercenary unit I thought I heard say R like English speaker would say. Not wholly even, it's something between hard R and English.
Is that supposed to be pronounced like that? I have a feeling Greeks say (said) hard R, something like Slavs. Latin units say it ok, and most Greek, if not all except that one (I think).

I know, it's not even the real critique, nor do I mind it, all the voices are made great, but I just notice it every time I hear it. (As I said, it doesn't bother me, kudos to the makers of voice-mod, great job).

Actually I just need someone to confirm I really heard it, and to tell me how was R pronounced in ancient Greek.

[GiorgioIII]

Actually I just need someone to confirm I really heard it, and to tell me how was R pronounced in ancient Greek.

R was clearly heard in the words not eliminated. For example ρομαιοι (romans)
was pronounced {romei} not {omei} or {romiioi}

[Ludens]

Let's keep it friendly here, shall we? You are not going to convince someone he's wrong by shouting at them.

GiorgioIII, there are a couple of controversies about how ancient Greek was spoken. You should have a look at this topic: it explains why the team chose the current pronunciation. For the record: the recordings were made by a Greek.

[GiorgioIII]

And here is something for people like you

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ancgre...c_practU1.html

click and hear

[Admetos]

To be honest Giorgio, you're wasting your time arguing with someone like Keravnos.

[Keravnos]

And how are those examples you mentioned different from what is heard in the mod exactly?

:hmmm:

In the timeline EB begins, fi or "φ" was called p+h. We know this because the Romani who used to joke making greeks spell "f" and couldn't, causing the Romans to laugh. If this was the case during the time the Romani conquered Greece, I suppose it was the case earlier.

θ, ορ t+h is much the same story. At the time of EB the most usual spelling was a "heavy t".

δ was more like an english "d" hadn't yet acquired the sound it now has in modern greek.

ζ was the only one which had dropped the "dz" sound into like our modern "z" so far as I know. I may be proven wrong but I think the change had taken place.

I am not saying I am correct all the time. In fact it is more than possible that in Attic greek (which is the voicemods' language), "Hippeis" would be spelled "hippes" as in everyday speech back then the "e+i" dipthong was shortened to "e". However there is no way to know whether this happened all over the greek world or it is an athenian only phaenomenon.

Also bear in mind that there was some thraikian influence in the greek language of yore. In Thraikian language (a different language than greek altogether), "ph" dipthong had become p, "th" d or t. That means that northern greeks being in constant contact with the Thraikians would deffinitely have an accent closer to them, not the southerns.

Not to mention that Makedonians actually changed the dialect of the language they were using only in their upper echelon of society. The people would still be using the dorian "northwestern" dialect of greek.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-Western_Greek
The Makedonian sub-branch of NW greek,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...onian_language

I think you will find many interesting things in those links.

[born2dive67]

And how are those examples you mentioned different from what is heard in the mod exactly?

:hmmm:

In the timeline EB begins, fi or "φ" was called p+h. We know this because the Romani who used to joke making greeks spell "f" and couldn't, causing the Romans to laugh. If this was the case during the time the Romani conquered Greece, I suppose it was the case earlier.

θ, ορ t+h is much the same story. At the time of EB the most usual spelling was a "heavy t".

δ was more like an english "d" hadn't yet acquired the sound it now has in modern greek.

ζ was the only one which had dropped the "dz" sound into like our modern "z" so far as I know. I may be proven wrong but I think the change had taken place.

I am not saying I am correct all the time. In fact it is more than possible that in Attic greek (which is the voicemods' language), "Hippeis" would be spelled "hippes" as in everyday speech back then the "e+i" dipthong was shortened to "e". However there is no way to know whether this happened all over the greek world or it is an athenian only phaenomenon.

Also bear in mind that there was some thraikian influence in the greek language of yore. In Thraikian language (a different language than greek altogether), "ph" dipthong had become p, "th" d or t. That means that northern greeks being in constant contact with the Thraikians would deffinitely have an accent closer to them, not the southerns.

Not to mention that Makedonians actually changed the dialect of the language they were using only in their upper echelon of society. The people would still be using the dorian "northwestern" dialect of greek.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-Western_Greek
The Makedonian sub-branch of NW greek,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...onian_language

I think you will find many interesting things in those links.

I finally get to say this and its actually true " It's all greek to me" lol don't have a clue of the impact that a voice would have on game play. To me as long as it sounds like a greek accent, i could care less what age that accent is. but if its speaking complete greek to me then i will be bummed cause i wont have a clue what you programmed this game to say at me
As long as the accent is greek, for greek troops and not a British accent its all good to me thumbs up to the team for sticking their ground

[IIyamaXP]

I finally get to say this and its actually true " It's all greek to me" lol don't have a clue of the impact that a voice would have on game play. To me as long as it sounds like a greek accent, i could care less what age that accent is. but if its speaking complete greek to me then i will be bummed cause i wont have a clue what you programmed this game to say at me
As long as the accent is greek, for greek troops and not a British accent its all good to me thumbs up to the team for sticking their ground

Same for me... Having so much accents available in EB1, always adapted to the corresponding faction is something that even big companies would not afford (who cares about immersion anyway... except fanatics )...

So why complaining?

(P.S. any beta date for EB2? )

[Quinctilius Varus]

I recently heard the Greek sounds on the original barbarorum and they were hillarious,, nothing to do with Greek. The ending oi in most of the units sounds simply i forget the o.

who care? they were Graeculi good only for be killed by the Romans (just kidding )

[Keravnos]

who care? they were Graeculi good only for be killed by the Romans (just kidding )

Well, that is deffinitely what I expected a Romani to say!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The original swear word for the Romani by Greeks was "Οπικοι" or a stone age lookalike tribe that the Greeks had subdued when colonizing Italy. -meaning "dumb as a rock", some historical name calling for you...

[Hax]

Filthy Romaioi dogs. They should bow down to their true Epeirote masters.

[Etepete]

It is obvious that the EBII team has done all the research that could be asked and more, and I'm really happy to see an ambitious and well-researched approach to the original language. And they/you have put in a lot of effort, time and talent. Tons of Kudos.

This is why it _really_ pains me to say that from what I've heard so far, it is still a weakness. The problem is one of pronunciation. The english accent is quite audible in all the files so far. And for that matter on the pronunciation website you linked too. Obviously, every nation has its own accent when it comes to pronouncing ancient languages, but none is as notoriously thick as the british or the american one - so this is no way reflects on the ability of the EB team in itself.

There are other options: finns, for instance are renowned for a rather neutral pronounciation of latin. And of course: if the Latin would be pronounced in an italian accent, or the Koine in a greek one, then who are we to complain?

I realise that this is a controversial topic, and I can but profess my own standpoint. I really hope that the EB II team will strive for a more "neutral" pronunciation. I recognize the tremendous effort already put into producing the audio for this game. I hope my concerns in this regard can be taken on board as the constructive criticism it is intended to be.

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, I'm a Classics student at university who has studied ancient Greek phonetics. I've read the most authoritative works on ancient Greek pronunciation and I've heard lectures from some of the most authoritative lecturers. And let me tell you -

Greek pronunciation has changed in the last 2300 years!

Believe it or not, modern Greek pronunciation is not the same as ancient Greek pronunciation. The only people who will claim that it is the same are ill-educated Greek nationalists. Although I am a great lover of the modern Greek nation and have a great fondness for the Greeks, if there is one thing about them that annoys me it's when they come and try to claim that ancient Greece was exactly like modern Greece.

[Confitemini in Domino]

Believe it or not, modern Greek pronunciation is not the same as ancient Greek pronunciation. The only people who will claim that it is the same are ill-educated Greek nationalists. Although I am a great lover of the modern Greek nation and have a great fondness for the Greeks, if there is one thing about them that annoys me it's when they come and try to claim that ancient Greece was exactly like modern Greece.

I find all of this very fascinating. I'm a newcomer to commenting, though I have lurked here for some time.

I speak Latin fluently, and have since I was little. My father taught it to me using a natural immersion method. Of course, we learned Church pronunciation, not Classical. Personally I like the former better, it flows better, and it sounds better to the ear. Maybe I'm biased, but oh well. Furthermore it was a form of Latin speech which some of the greatest Latin speakers used, such as Augustine, Jerome and Boethius, emerging in the late empire.
Knowing that, and being biased toward it as I am, I would never claim it was Cicero's language. When I was young I thought it would be cool to prove Classical pronunciation was merely created in modern times, but all the evidence goes the other way, based on some text books on Latin from that time, and the spellings of Latin words and names in Greek and other languages which existed at the same time as Classical Latin. Oh well life moves on.
The difference for me is that later Latin pronunciation (ecclesiastical) is not a cultural symbol of unity embraced in the face of oppression. I don't have a dog in the fight of proving what pronunciation was used in the Republican-Early Imperial Period. I could care less, I'd rather have a gin and tonic.
Yet, to our Greek Brothers, language, just as religion (orthodoxy), is a national symbol of unity, clung to desperately through 400 years of oppression by the Ottoman boot. It is a national heritage. Their language is something to be proud of, so damn any western scholar who is going to say that Greek changed. Oh well, what can you do. It's not that important. I love Greek food and I'm not going to insult the Greek bakers who provide me with recipes and age old secrets to making their food by adding in, by the way, you're not speaking it right! I know koine too, which makes it hard to try and talk to them in Greek. Oh well, it is not that important. Let them mod the mod to change the voice if they won't concede the point. Anything is better than Greeks who sound like a cross between Italians and Spaniards like vanilla MTW2!

[Shigawire]

I speak Latin fluently, and have since I was little. My father taught it to me using a natural immersion method. Of course, we learned Church pronunciation, not Classical. Personally I like the former better, it flows better, and it sounds better to the ear. Maybe I'm biased, but oh well. Furthermore it was a form of Latin speech which some of the greatest Latin speakers used, such as Augustine, Jerome and Boethius, emerging in the late empire.

I prefer Classical Latin. Of course, it's just a matter of subjective opinions. I asked Dr. William Fulco why he used Ecclesiastical Latin for the Romans in "The Passion of Christ," and he told me it was true that they should have used Classical, but Mel insisted on using Ecclesiastical for purposes of artistic freedom, and because Ecclesiastical Latin is considered a language representing the Christian Church.

Ah Augustine. There's a paradox about him, on the one hand he's one of the foremost proponents of Just War Theory. Just War Theory has been applied in discussing the legality of the Iraq War in 2003, and the Right-wing think tanks, and Proto-Fascists at the Federalist Society quote Augustine and Aquinas in attempting to rationalize this rampant militarism. Though his contribution to "Just War Theory" has been misinterpreted or "contorted" a great deal to conform to the wishes of the powerful. But, returning to the paradox. I do like Augustine's story about the Pirate and the Emperor. This story is very important and holds true for the world today.

Yet, to our Greek Brothers, language, just as religion (orthodoxy), is a national symbol of unity, clung to desperately through 400 years of oppression by the Ottoman boot. It is a national heritage. Their language is something to be proud of, so damn any western scholar who is going to say that Greek changed. Oh well, what can you do. It's not that important. I love Greek food and I'm not going to insult the Greek bakers who provide me with recipes and age old secrets to making their food by adding in, by the way, you're not speaking it right! I know koine too, which makes it hard to try and talk to them in Greek. Oh well, it is not that important. Let them mod the mod to change the voice if they won't concede the point. Anything is better than Greeks who sound like a cross between Italians and Spaniards like vanilla MTW2!

I hope you were ironic when you said "damn any westerner who says their language changed." Irony isn't easy to discern in online forums. If not, it should be stated that this opinion on ancient Greek isn't just a "foreign" conspiracy. There are many national Greek traitors who also believe that Ancient Greek worked like this. Just look at Keravnos. Although one must be respectful, I think the truth matters more than some vague jingoist "opinion" on what the truth about a matter is. How a language was or wasn't. Feelings never make good arguments, and in attempting to display a different time, we must try our hardest to dig at the truth rather than take the first meat head opinion we come across. I doubt that the result would be spectacular or historically precise if we hired neo-nazis to work on the Sweboz for example.

For those who in this day and age still feel they must believe and owe some sort of fealty or debt of gratitude towards a state, government, or culture, will always have their own perceptions of said state, government or culture. And there will always be some who feel their national pride is being undermined by foreign sappers. I'm just glad I have no such feelings towards my own state or any state for that matter. It appears to be quite a debilitating mental block, both for understanding the world, politics and history. And I stay clear away from any obstacle to comprehension. Jingoism/Patriotism is one such obstacle.

But here's the cool thing about Greeks. Of most languages that I know in the world today, their language has changed the least for the LONGEST amount of time. So if they absolutely need to feel proud of something, this is something they could be proud of. Because language and culture is something that spans greater swathes of time than states and governments.