Pragmatic Religion

[Earl of Rochester]

Basic Premise of Pragmatic Religion
Anyone who has read my posts on the subject of Christianity would know that I find many of the Christian beliefs to be ridiculous, contradicting, and in some cases down right sinister. Despite this I am someone who visits church on a regular basis. Now this may appear hypocritical, but hear me out. I love church, I love the community it creates. At least my particular church, I have a far more unfavorable opinion of others. But my church takes care of me. When my grandfather died just about everyone from the church did something for me, I've never had so much food and I didnt have to worry about meals for a week. The people in my church care for each other. The church also is a venue for me to do good. I've done mission trips across the country doing repair work for the needy. It makes me feel good about myself and I have certainly helped others in need. So despite the headaches occasionally caused by listening to sermons I don't agree with, I would say my church experience has been a very positive one.

But there is one problem, I think the institution of the Church could be so much more powerful. There are many Christians who become genuinely good people from going to church, or at least it helps to make them the good people they are. But Church also has negative consequences. It has severely hampered scientific learning in this country(America) and it helps create fanatics from Crusaders to pro-life terrorists(the ones who bomb clinics). Not to mention the majority of Christians who seem to go about and live their destructive lives, gaining very little moral guidance from the Church. A problem is Christianity's focus is not about being good, it is about putting Jesus first. Of course being good is a part of this, but not the whole. Christianity isn't a set of actions that can bring good moral behavior, it is a whole series of doctrines that tell you what is wrong, not how to be right. The general Christian instruction is to ask God into your life and follow him to righteousness. This sounds good, but clearly it isn't exactly the most effective way of correcting sinfulness. Just look at your typical Christian.

So this leads me to my point, while Church has positives, these are offset by its negatives. In my opinion the positives could be enhanced and the negatives could be negated, but this is not possible within the realms of Christianity. Or any religion I know of. Eastern religions come close, but I tend to find problems with all of them. Perhaps im just being too cynical, but in my opinion nobody has found a religion that actually works. Now you may say the answer is that there should be no Church, but I feel that positives should not be ignored. A pragmatic society should uses these positives for their benefit. It is of course a difficult task, but one that I feel could be obtained with work. A new Church, a new religion, that helps inspires its followers to lead better lives and to better understand themselves while being nurtured in a loving community, but without fairy tales and resistance to progress and science. A truly pragmatic religion!

P.S I will add more about what I feel should be included in such a religion. Not that I am attempting to provide all the answers. I don't see myself as some prophet or anything, just a philosophically minded seventeen year old trying to brainstorm.

P.S.S And just for the record yes I made some generalities in my post. It doesn't mean I didn't think things more out, there is just a limited amount of time I am willing to spend on a post in an internet forum. To properly analyze the subject I would have to write a book, which I am certainly not attempting to do here. Im looking for feedback on the idea as a whole. Of course your free to post what you like, not that you needed me to tell you.

[Marcion]

It kind of sounds to me what you're trying to grasp at is secular humanism, but I really don't get at all what these "bad" things about Christianity are.

I wouldn't say it "severely hampers" learning in the US in the slightest, the mindset definitely annoys a lot of people, and the stem cell bans have set us back some, but this is hardly a major problem. You mention terrorism, and people living "destructive lives" without moral guidance. When I was Christian we could get all the moral guidance from priests that we could ever ask for, the problem there is whether people have the volition to actually follow it, or do the right thing at all. And fanaticism is something that always seems to wax and wane with the ages. Judaism, Christianity, Islam have all had their periods of religious violence, and it's something that can more often then not attributed to socio-economic conditions. There's always a lot of oppressed, abused poor to start with, then religion comes to be a channel for violent behavior. Even if it wasn't there at all, I think defective societies would have some kind of means of "bloodletting."

Christianity isn't a set of actions that can bring good moral behavior, it is a whole series of doctrines that tell you what is wrong, not how to be right.

This just totally bewilders me. I don't know what church you go to, but you may want to try paying attention to what they say when you go back. There are multitudinous phrases and allegories in the Bible that show the right way to act in different situations. They conflict with one another sometimes, and they may not all be completely relevant today, but they are definitely there.

Trying to improve on religion for the benefit of society isn't a bad idea, but you really need to clarify or put some more thought into it.

[Earl of Rochester]

It kind of sounds to me what you're trying to grasp at is secular humanism, but I really don't get at all what these "bad" things about Christianity are.

No, I understand secular humanism perfectly. I feel that Secular humanism lacks the benefit of an institutional "church". I think the world needs such a thing, a secular human church that has all the positives of religion without all the negatives.

I wouldn't say it "severely hampers" learning in the US in the slightest, the mindset definitely annoys a lot of people, and the stem cell bans have set us back some, but this is hardly a major problem.

More people in the United States believe in creationism than evolution. That is a major problem. Major potential medical breakthroughs are being hampered such as the stem cell issue. At one point in time it caused heliocentricists to be burned. Of course people can be Christian and not hamper their intellect, but the religion itself is a negative influence as it teaches many things that are contradictory to rational thought.

You mention terrorism, and people living "destructive lives" without moral guidance. When I was Christian we could get all the moral guidance from priests that we could ever ask for, the problem there is whether people have the volition to actually follow it, or do the right thing at all. And fanaticism is something that always seems to wax and wane with the ages.

Fanaticism is something that exists without religion, I am well aware of that. However religion certainly provides ammunition for fanatics. Which is a negative.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam have all had their periods of religious violence, and it's something that can more often then not attributed to socio-economic conditions. There's always a lot of oppressed, abused poor to start with, then religion comes to be a channel for violent behavior. Even if it wasn't there at all, I think defective societies would have some kind of means of "bloodletting."

Again obviously religion is not the root cause of violence, but it can easily contribute.

This just totally bewilders me. I don't know what church you go to, but you may want to try paying attention to what they say when you go back. There are multitudinous phrases and allegories in the Bible that show the right way to act in different situations. They conflict with one another sometimes, and they may not all be completely relevant today, but they are definitely there.

Yes there are good parts in the bible, such as Jesus's parables however this is not the focus of the bible or Christianity. The focus is to worship God. A vast majority of Christian rhetoric is about how much we should praise God, not about how to actually live a moral life. This is the issue you seem to be having with my post.

Christians have a moral code. There are instances in the bible that help illustrate these moral codes. Your local priest/preachers will try their very best to help you follow these moral codes. I understand this. But this is not ideal. It can be seen clearly by the followers of the religion. A vast majority of Christians are no different than non-Christians. You can say this is the fault of the followers, they aren't following the tenets properly. Perhaps, but a good religion would be designed so that it is easy to follow and produces good results.

An example. Common Christian advice is to pray for yourself or for someone else. Im sorry, but this doesn't really achieve anything. There are more practical things to do. Christianity always assumes the best thing is to put your life into God's hands. Let him decide etc. Yes Christians have good morals etc, but they dilute it with a lot of focus on God/Gods intervention/praise of God etc. All of these things distract from actually achieving good results.

Trying to improve on religion for the benefit of society isn't a bad idea, but you really need to clarify or put some more thought into it.

No more thought certainly isn't necessary, again as I said in the disclaimer, this isn't really something that is easily summed up in a forum post. I certainly don't have a twisted view of Christianity if that is what you think, I probably have more experience with it than 90% of the members here.

The whole point is Christianity and most religions weren't made to help people be better in this life. They were made because people wondered what happens after death. They wanted to explain the unexplainable. Now this makes for good story telling, but it isn't the best way to make a sound moral code with a clear way of following it.

[Marcion]

No, I understand secular humanism perfectly. I feel that Secular humanism lacks the benefit of an institutional "church". I think the world needs such a thing, a secular human church that has all the positives of religion without all the negatives.

So you want institutionalized secular humanism.... Okay then.

More people in the United States believe in creationism than evolution. That is a major problem. Major potential medical breakthroughs are being hampered such as the stem cell issue. At one point in time it caused heliocentricists to be burned. Of course people can be Christian and not hamper their intellect, but the religion itself is a negative influence as it teaches many things that are contradictory to rational thought.

Fanaticism is something that exists without religion, I am well aware of that. However religion certainly provides ammunition for fanatics. Which is a negative.

Again obviously religion is not the root cause of violence, but it can easily contribute.

These are all weak positions to take. Not all Christians even support the stem cell ban, and it's certainly not a purely Christian belief to do so, I'll wager you as soon as Dubya's out it's coming right off. People being burned for heliocentrism is utter ********. And the rest of those are so easily reductio ad absurdum'd I don't think I'm going to bother with them.

Yes there are good parts in the bible, such as Jesus's parables however this is not the focus of the bible or Christianity. The focus is to worship God. A vast majority of Christian rhetoric is about how much we should praise God, not about how to actually live a moral life. This is the issue you seem to be having with my post.

Christians have a moral code. There are instances in the bible that help illustrate these moral codes. Your local priest/preachers will try their very best to help you follow these moral codes. I understand this. But this is not ideal. It can be seen clearly by the followers of the religion. A vast majority of Christians are no different than non-Christians. You can say this is the fault of the followers, they aren't following the tenets properly. Perhaps, but a good religion would be designed so that it is easy to follow and produces good results.

An example. Common Christian advice is to pray for yourself or for someone else. Im sorry, but this doesn't really achieve anything. There are more practical things to do. Christianity always assumes the best thing is to put your life into God's hands. Let him decide etc. Yes Christians have good morals etc, but they dilute it with a lot of focus on God/Gods intervention/praise of God etc. All of these things distract from actually achieving good results.

The whole point is Christianity and most religions weren't made to help people be better in this life. They were made because people wondered what happens after death. They wanted to explain the unexplainable. Now this makes for good story telling, but it isn't the best way to make a sound moral code with a clear way of following it.

I think that we must have gone to very different churches. As I was taught in Catholic school, all your prayers and worship would mean absolutely nothing if you didn't try your best to be a just person. Prayer was an important part of faith, but if you didn't practice the cardinal virtues, and emulate what you learned from Christ's teachings you were not a real Christian at all. The whole concept of "sin" is meant to enforce morality on the layperson, and it's about the most powerful and pervasive thing about the entire Abrahamic system. There's metaphysics tacked on, sure, but the very reason why I think the faith has survived this long is because it is seen as the moral foundation of society by its adherents.

This is about the most bizarre argument about Christianity I've ever seen... You've actually made me side with it.

[Earl of Rochester]

So you want institutionalized secular humanism.... Okay then.

I've made it pretty clear what I want. The community of a Christian Church without all the absurd doctrines/

These are all weak positions to take. Not all Christians even support the stem cell ban, and it's certainly not a purely Christian belief to do so, I'll wager you as soon as Dubya's out it's coming right off. People being burned for heliocentrism is utter ********. And the rest of those are so easily reductio ad absurdum'd I don't think I'm going to bother with them.

It doesn't matter about individual Christians. Something like 80% of Americans don't believe in Evolution and this is purely due to Christianity. And heliocentrism persecution does not occur today, but it did happen, because the bible clearly says the sun revolves around the earth. When your taught a religous book is the divine revelation of God and that this book contains sections that teach the sun revolves around the earth, there is going to be problems. Its not a matter of some Christians, the faith as a whole is flawed as it naturally includes these absurdities.

I think that we must have gone to very different churches. As I was taught in Catholic school, all your prayers and worship would mean absolutely nothing if you didn't try your best to be a just person. Prayer was an important part of faith, but if you didn't practice the cardinal virtues, and emulate what you learned from Christ's teachings you were not a real Christian at all. The whole concept of "sin" is meant to enforce morality on the layperson, and it's about the most powerful and pervasive thing about the entire Abrahamic system. There's metaphysics tacked on, sure, but the very reason why I think the faith has survived this long is because it is seen as the moral foundation of society by its adherents.

All Churches teach that the principle way to be a good Christian is to follow God's commandments. But the focus is still on God, not the good.

This is about the most bizarre argument about Christianity I've ever seen...

It was never meant to be an argument about Christianity. You made it that because you attacked basic assumptions that I think are pretty self-evident. If you look at Christianity then look at something like Confucianism you will see the difference I am talking about. Christianity preaches about being good, Confucianism carefully lays out how to do that. Confucianism is probably about the closest thing to pragmatic religion. Or certain strands of Buddhism. These are what I was referencing when I said eastern religions. They are pragmatic, less worship, more how to actively better yourself. My only problem is they still have some doctrines I disagree with. They are close to my ideal pragmatic religion, but not quite there in my opinion.

You've actually made me side with it. [

Only because your focusing on small things instead of my main points.

These thread wasn't meant to be about whether Christianity is a pragmatic religion or not. Its pretty clear that it is not, and really you saying my arguments are bizarre doesn't really change that fact.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Earl, have you heard of these people?

Yep. That is indeed very close to what I have in mind and I even seriously considered joining them once. But I looked into it and all it seems to be is half-assed Christianity. In concept its very close to what I want, from reading their website I just don't feel that they deliver.

Lucius Julius, I feel you have misinterpreted me. I have a very clear understanding of Christianity and can quote scriptures from all over the bible. I understand central doctrines, historical advancements, and the different sects. I certainly do not lack knowledge. Its simply that by exposing myself to knowledge of Christianity I learned of the many doctrinal flaws. Trust me, there is zero chance of me ever believing Jesus was the son of God again. This isn't because of some pain in me or anything, just the reality.

And Im not attempting the follow the Christian moral code, those morals are bullocks. Well at least some of them. Others are essentially universal anyways. What I want is a Christian-like "church" that establishes its own moral code based on rational thought, not thousand year old parchment and comes with detailed ways how to make following these morals a reality. Similar to eastern religions such as Confucianism and Buddhism.

Don't worry for my soul, Im not in any danger of burning(or anyone else for that matter...)

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

It doesn't matter about individual Christians. Something like 80% of Americans don't believe in Evolution and this is purely due to evolution.

I have to agree that having so many people in the US so scientifically ignorant as to reject evolutionary biology is a distinct worry. But ...

And heliocentrism persecution does not occur today, but it did happen, because the bible clearly says the sun revolves around the earth. When your taught a religous book is the divine revelation of God and that this book contains sections that teach the sun revolves around the earth, there is going to be problems.

But no-one was burned for it dude. That's a myth.

[Jabberwock]

Earl, have you heard of these people?

http://www.uua.org/

If you're searching for a religious home that is guided by a quest for truth and meaning, not by a set creed or dogma, we invite you to discover Unitarian Universalism. We are a caring, open–minded religious community that encourages you to seek your own spiritual path. Unitarian Universalist congregations are places where people gather to nurture their spirits and put their faith into action by helping to make our communities—and the world—a better place.

[The Good]

Earl of Rochester, so you attend church, yet do not believe in God, and that Jesus had died for the sins of mankind? I think you are missing what Christianity is about. If you have any desire at all left to BE a Christian, and not just go through the motions, check out this website. This website was created by Dr. Chuck Missler, a scientist who explains Christianity, he's easy to understand too, and even has a CD program, going through the Bible in 24 hours, this I also recommend you check out.

Earl of Rochester, so you attend church, yet do not believe in God, and that Jesus had died for the sins of mankind? I think you are missing what Christianity is about. If you have any desire at all left to BE a Christian, and not just go through the motions, check out this website. This website was created by Dr. Chuck Missler, a scientist who explains Christianity, he's easy to understand too, and even has a CD program, going through the Bible in 24 hours, this I also recommend you check out.

http://www.khouse.org/

From your post, it clearly seems that you are no longer inspired, and are looking for other ways to deal with life. That shouldn't be your answer. I am genuinely worried for you. Following Christian morals is good, but is that's not enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (Heaven is nothing like you see in the movies, you immediately forget the urge to sin, and it is an eternal paradise.)

[Jabberwock]

Heaven is nothing like you see in the movies, you immediately forget the urge to sin, and it is an eternal paradise.

Really? So you've been there?

[The Good]

Really? So you've been there?

Various verses in the Bible describe it, it will be the most beautiful place you will ever see. It's a huge understatement to say that Heaven is as portrayed in films, television, and other media.

[Jabberwock]

Various verses in the Bible describe it, it will be the most beautiful place you will ever see. It's a huge understatement to say that Heaven is as portrayed in films, television, and other media.

You're not being very pragmatic.

[Earl of Rochester]

Case-point why Christianity is not a pragmatic religion.


edit-Lol you beat me to it.

[Ummon]

Rochester, Vatican II tried to institute such "pragmatism" (Umberto Eco would be proud of you, by the way) in Christianism.

The reason why they are today trying to delete the heinous disaster, is that there can be no religion when there is no absolute truth, and absolute truth doesn't depend on circumstances and the stances of the people involved in the "meaningful exchange"...

[The Good]

Earl of Rochester, do you consider yourself a true Christian at all? Because I don't think you are non-religious, so to speak. Just by the way you said you go to church says a lot about that. I am worried, however, that you are going through the motions, but do not feel any emotional urge to worship.

[The Good]

No, Christianity has far too many pitfalls for me to believe in it and it causes far too many problems. If anything I am a spinoza style pantheist.

I saw in your first post that you support stem cell research, science, and medical progress. You could still support those things, and be a believer. Don't become an apostate, there isn't a reason to.

Its true the bible perpetuates things like disbelief in evolution and geocentricism. Its true that indoctrinating children to these subjects is unhealthy. Its not good when most of a nation rejects modern biology. No wonder so many people have a problem stomaching global warming, they are taught at an early age that scientific theories are only "theories" equally as valid as creation myths from thousands of years ago.

Even if you think the world became because of evolution, you could still be a Christian. That particular part of the Bible just explains how the world came to be, not the doctrines or morals, whether you accept evolution as truth is up to you. Although I myself disagree with evolution for the most part (I believe micro evolution is true), that shouldn't prevent you from following the morals and doctrines.

In short, even with those beliefs in mind, it's still possible for you to be a Christian. The actual teachings of Christ do not really conflict with your current beliefs.

[Dayman]

Although I myself disagree with evolution for the most part (I believe micro evolution is true), that shouldn't prevent you from following the morals and doctrines.

There are no scales of evolution. Either you are in touch with reality, and accept it, or you loose that touch with denying it. Saying that evolution over the short term is possible yet not over the long term is such a large contradiction it hurts to think about it.

In short, even with those beliefs in mind, it's still possible for you to be a Christian. The actual teachings of Christ do not really conflict with your current beliefs.

Please, please, be a Christian, even though you think it's pretty much crap!

[Ummon]

Bruno's trial was marred by his stubborn contempt from the inquisition, and the fact that Venice had to assert that the autonomous nature of its Inquisition (which was dependant from the Doge, and not the Pope) didn't make it more lenient on heretics.

But Bruno's problematic assertions had mostly to do with faith issues, not science.

[Spurius]

Bit circular, that - ofcourse he was no 'scientist', and whatever official 'science' there was, was 80% religious anyway.... remember Newtons other hobbies?

[Ummon]

Bit circular, that - ofcourse he was no 'scientist', and whatever official 'science' there was, was 80% religious anyway.... remember Newtons other hobbies?

I meant, more specifically, that he was in trouble mostly because he suggested that other planets were inhabited by sentient beings, which denied the uniqueness of Jesus, and not because of heliocentrism.

[Irishman]

I've made it pretty clear what I want. The community of a Christian Church without all the absurd doctrines/

Have you looked into Jainism or Buddhism (and some forms of Hinduism)? I know you said you have some problems with eastern relgions, but if you go to the right temple, often these are more "self-help" religions, focusing on self betterment and ACTION (not prayer) to better the world.

You have to be careful what tradition you go to, but a majority of these religions dont believe in the absurd doctrines of the Christian faith, in fact, most Buddhists and Jains dont believe in the spirit or afterlife at all, but they focus intently on the sangha or community.

Not trying to convert you it just seems like these (rationalist) "religions" may be more suited for you.