Iberia Region Unit Guide

[MCM]

[florin80]

I have a question and I hope it won`t sparc any heatted debate. I`m simple curious. Am I mistaking or most of the celts don`t have torcs? The spearman seems to have it, but the other more high status warriors like the heavy cavalry, soldurii, ambacti and swordsmen apparently lack it. How come? They`re otherwise very detailed, impressive units so there has to be some technical or historical reason for it.

[khshayathiya]

I venture to believe the reason was technical - I've no idea how many polys a torque involves, but perhaps it was considered that higher-status cavalry units, for example, ought to get more detail elsewhere (e.g. the sword, which is quite detailed or the helmets of some). But take this answer with caution, as it doesn't come from an authoritative voice as far as GFX goes

[HamilcarBarca]

You will find that Keltoi chieftains (characters & captains) have torcs, consistent with them being a feature of high status Celts & Celtiberians.

We were mindful of the four archetypal elements of feritas celtica listed by Polybius (2.29.4-6) and Poseidonius (in Diodorus, 5.30-31): nakedness, the torc, the sword and the carnyx or war trumpet

H.

[DisgruntledGoat]

I would hazard it had to do with texture space more than anything. Don't know why I think that way. But florin might.

[florin80]

I was wondering what`s the purpose of the caetrati tribesmen/skirmishers from a historical point of view. Both the iberians and celtiberians have a caetrati unit(other than the tribesmen) which, true, has better weapons(swords vs. knives) and also minimal armor(helmet and greaves for the celtiberian). But they`re also intended as light skirmish troops and from their descriptions they seem to be coming from the same social class. So why are the tribesmen necessary? Are they iberian or celtiberian?
No offense intended. I`m not looking to start one of those heated "history accuracy" arguments.

[Tony83]

I don't know the answer myself matey, but I've posted your question in the Developers' forum so, hopefully, we'll get a response from that.

[florin80]

Thanks! You`re very helpful.

[Tony83]

Hi Florin, here's the answer to your question from HamilcarBarca.

I am happy to answer this one

OK, basically in its original conception the Iberian AOR list provides two 'types' of units, the "Early Phase" (pre-237 BC) units, and the 'Late Phase" units (found after 237 BC).

The "Early Phase" represents the indigenous units fighting in their traditional style; a greater emphasis on skirmishing and rapid movement, a lack of heavy "line infantry", and the absence of heavy cavalry altogether. Interestingly, the Iberians did not use heavy shock cavalry as tactical units until after 237 BC.

The "Late Phase" represents the Iberian units that appeared after 237 BC, at a time when Carthaginian (and later Roman) forces appeared in the peninsula, and the large scale integration of native troops into Carthaginian & Roman armies as levies, allies and mercenaries. The advent of high intensity Hellenistic warfare, large scale and extended military operations, and siege warfare all stimulated the rapid development of "line" infantry (armed with the Celtic-style oval scutum shield) and heavy cavalry types.

The Caetrati Tribesmen are basically the rural peasantry of Iberian society, who serve as skirmishers and ambushers in the same way as Greek Psiloi do. They cannot stand up to line infantry or cavalry in close-in fighting. The Caetrati Falcata, however, are infantry, able to form and fight in a battle line, fighting with throwing spears, sword and caetra. In the "Late Phase" the Caetrati Falcata were outclassed by the Scutarii Falcata - who formed a more effective battle line with the larger Celtic-style scutari/thueros shield.

To reflect this, the Iberian AOR units should be thought of in this manner;

Iberian AOR Roster - "Early Phase"

Caetrati Slinger
Caetrati Tribesmen (Skirmisher)
Caetrati Falcata (Swordsmen)
Cantabrian Cavalry (Missile Cavalry)

Iberian AOR Roster - "Late Phase"

Scutarii Falcata (Swordsmen)
Iberian Elite Scutarii Warriors (Elite Swordsmen)
Caetrati Cavalry (Light Cavalry)
Iberian Scutarii Cavalry (Elite Heavy Cavalry)

The Caetrati Tribesmen is an Iberian unit. The Celtiberian tribes of the Meseta were effected by the transformation in panoply and fighting style among the Iberians of eastern and southern Spain. The Celtiberian Caetrati are 'dual purpose' infantry - able to serve as both skirmishers and effective line infantry, and are typical of the "Early Phase"; after 237 BC the Celtiberian Scutari predominated in Celtiberian armies, and they were a match for both Roman and Carthaginian heavy infantry.

The authority I rely upon for this stuff is a Spanish academic named Fernando Quesada Sanz. He has written quite a bit of stuff (English and Spanish), some of which is on the web. See http://www.ffil.uam.es/equus (and specially http://www.ffil.uam.es/equus/warmas/online/online.html) - and also Quesada's writings in Gladius (also available on the web - but you will need to be able to read Spanish - .http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=92833

IMHO this article was particularly ground breaking: Fernando Quesada Sanz, ‘Not so different: individual fighting techniques and battle tactics of Roman and Iberian armies within the framework of warfare in the Hellenistic Age’, in P Francois, P Moret, S Pere-Nogues (Eds.), L’Hellenisation en Mediterranee Occidentale au temps des guerres puniques, Actes du Colloque International de Toulouse, 31 mars-2 avril 2005, Pallas 70, 2006, pp. 245-263.

For the keen historians among us, Quesada is in the same school as authorities like Gregory Daly, Phillip Sabin and Alexander Zhmodikov - they marry modern archaeology with their own first-rate understanding of history to accurately understand and explain the fighting style and panoply of ancient warriors/soldiers and the 'face of battle' in ancient times.

The recently released book Fernando Quesda Sanz (illustrations Carlos Fernandez del Castillo), Armas de Grecia y Roma: Forjaron la Historia de la Antiguedad Clasica, La Esfera de los Libros, Madrid, 2008 is basically the modern revision and replacement of that appalling work by Peter Connolly, Greece and Rome at War (Greenhill Books, London, 1981). I picked up a copy of Armas de Grecia y Roma in Madrid in June 2008; unfortunately its only available in Spanish AFAIK, so far too many English-speaking amateur historians are still relying on the crap produced by Connolly.

H.

[HouseOfHam]

We may use a reform-marker building.

[florin80]

Problem is what you`re gonna do about them if they need to be mercenaries too(like they were in TIC iirc). That you won`t be able to go around.

[khshayathiya]

It wouldn't be such a problem, from my point of view. After all, such a reform happened gradually and even after the "reform", there would still be people around carrying old-fashioned stuff.

After all, this was not a "Marian" reform, meaning that the state would not take it upon itself to issue standard equipment to the soldiers.

[florin80]

My point was not restricted to the fact that both units will be available at the same time, but also that the late units will be available in a matter of a few turns. even if you start with the caetratii in the merc pool and the others appear later it won`t take them more than a few turns because the replenish rate can`t be differentiated along the game`s course.

But you`re right. Not being a state reform, the complete disappearance of a unit type sounds a bit much.

I have a further question if no one minds. From the two iberian rosters posted above I now realize that the caetratii cavalry, cantabrian cavalry and the scutarii cavalry are all iberian aor units. And since there is only one other non african cavalry in tic and that`s a celtic/gallic heavy cavalry, does that mean that the celtiberian faction won`t have any sort of faction cavalry in RTR 7?

[HamilcarBarca]

Right. But do they replace one another or do they coexist? Presuming there is a final decision on this. From your reply I`m tempted to think the light ones disappear when the heavy ones start to be available.

IMHO they coexist. The heavier units are recruitable as better AOR barracks are built. Even after the "Late Phase" Iberian units appeared, the more traditional soldier were still fielded by tribes and even as Roman & Carthaginian levies.

I have a further question if no one minds. From the two iberian rosters posted above I now realize that the caetratii cavalry, cantabrian cavalry and the scutarii cavalry are all iberian aor units. And since there is only one other non african cavalry in tic and that`s a celtic/gallic heavy cavalry, does that mean that the celtiberian faction won`t have any sort of faction cavalry in RTR 7?

There is a Celtiberian Cavalry unit, which is a formidable heavy cavalry unit based on the Celtic model. For light and medium cavalry types, the Celtiberians need to rely on Iberian AOR units.

H.

[florin80]

There is a Celtiberian Cavalry unit, which is a formidable heavy cavalry unit based on the Celtic model. For light and medium cavalry types, the Celtiberians need to rely on Iberian AOR units.

H.

Are you referring to the one above? I`ve always assumed it is just a placeholder because its texture is named rtr_aor_gaul_cavalry_heavy.tga.dds and I was expecting to see it as a general aor celtic unit in a bigger campaign release. Still, I have a suspicion you`ll be one texture short.

A bit off topic. I`ve noticed in a foe preview the order of battle for the carthaginians against Hiketas. They had chariots. Was that for the sake of theory alone or have you resurrected the carthaginian chariots? Unless I need to wait for the preview to find that out.

[HamilcarBarca]

Are you referring to the one above? I`ve always assumed it is just a placeholder because its texture is named rtr_aor_gaul_cavalry_heavy.tga.dds and I was expecting to see it as a general aor celtic unit in a bigger campaign release. Still, I have a suspicion you`ll be one texture short.

No - these cavalry are only available as Celtiberian Cavalry, Keltoi Heavy Cavlry and Keltoi Mercenaries, not as AOR. Hopefully there will be enough DMB - but you will always be the exeprt on that topic!

A bit off topic. I`ve noticed in a foe preview the order of battle for the carthaginians against Hiketas. They had chariots. Was that for the sake of theory alone or have you resurrected the carthaginian chariots? Unless I need to wait for the preview to find that out.

At least for the sake of theory... but you will have to wait and see. My struggle for Punic chariots continues...

H.

[HouseOfHam]

Mmm.... Are you referring to the 4-horse Libyan chariots supposedly used against Timoleon in Sicily?

[HamilcarBarca]

Mmm.... Are you referring to the 4-horse Libyan chariots supposedly used against Timoleon in Sicily?

HoH, take a look at http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184491

H.

[florin80]

lol. I presume it leads to the dev forum...

[HamilcarBarca]

lol. I presume it leads to the dev forum...

fraid so... you coould always apply for membership

H.