Make Cavalry less powerful?

[The King Of Peasants]

First off I really enjoy this mod because of the difficulty in the campaign. Anyways I use Genoa and don't get much access to cav early. I have always enjoyed using infantry heavy armies but with the 2 hit point cav there really isn't anyway to survive a charge without losing at least half of your infantry.
I did some tests in custom battles and the first one was French Chivalric Knights v Turkish Dismounted Spahi with 2 armor upgrades and a weapon one results: Knights 6 men lost of 38 spahis 92 men lost of 113
And also mailed knights v armor and weapon upgraded armored sergeants results: 0 men lost for the knights v all men lost for the sergeants.
There aren't even really any infantry units that can beat charging knights where as light cav lose like 10 guys from the charge does a light horse really make that much difference?

[SicilianVespers]

Sorry for the late reply, I have been extremely busy at work.


To be honest, this is historical. Knights should rule the battlefield. In the early middle ages there are only rare occasions where infantry armies defeated a knightly foe. An example would the the Lombard Leagues victory over Frederick Barbarossa at Legnano in 1176.

The key to winning with an infantry based army is using combined arms, etc. They will almost always lose in a 1 on 1 battle.

[ConstantineVII]

I must quote SV at this point. As Ostrogorscii himself wrote (He is the author of the most well known and well received Byzantine history) "At that point [1082] a small group of knights -as low as twelve sometimes- was able to make flee large numbers of byzantines -as many as two hundrends- by one single charge... The Knights' level of devotion to God made them almost undefeatable" [Siculo-Byzantine crisis of Dyrrachion]

With Respect
Constantine

[DaVinci]

As the balancing is one of my departments, and what you are experiencing in the battles is due to my codes, i have also to give a response, here another historical example, look at this thread, my post number 9

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=124590

[The King Of Peasants]

Very good points. I've had fun since then with the chalenge of beating knights without using them. Your probably right about them being able to beat spear units as even if professional they would probably be mostly garrision soldiers anyways. Something else Ive noticed and really enjoyed is that most archery units have less men. Anyways back on topic the reason I think I was getting annoyed by it is that I had just been playing lusteds battle ai where a unit of light spears can stop heavy cav. Something else I was reading in that battle length thread is you said weapon upgrades don't upgrade the damage, what do they do?

[Shadow_Imperator]

I know this isn't ChivTW... I found that, with Byzantium, Peltastai worked well in conjunction spearmen against Western knights.

Javelins + Spears = Good against heavy cav..

[DaVinci]

unit of light spears can stop heavy cav

Pikemen can of course stop a heavy cav charge, also in this mod here The pike units are the end for the knights being the masters on the battlefield, as it was in history. (A future release will have the pike units still better than they are now, probable).

Lol ... light spearmen can stopping a heavy cav charging ... they would run probable before the cavalry can reach them in reality (in regard of a lot of historical examples ... you should know that heavy cavalry spread a lot of fear, and this already in the classic times; and know imagine knights, full of armour and best weaponry, and known as people who learned warefare from childhood on, vs. peasants, who got a spear and a shield and often no real training and shall stop them).

[|Lorre|]

plain spearmen were almost useless against a charge, the examples are many. For instance the scottish victories under Wallace were due even to the presence of pikemen in the scottish army, which were useful against english heavy cavalry.

It's a physical issue: if I have in my hand, a spear which is 2 meters long, the charging horse will probably be hit if I stand my ground (assuming that I don't run away in fear, i.e. that I am weeeeell trained), but I also would be probably killed because the horse and the rider would trample me even if I hit them.

That was one the key of the pikes, since a falling horse could not reach the infantrymen, and his body obstacled the knights that came over behind it, thus resulting in chaos and death for riders. Also long pikes scared unbarded horses, which can see clearly the obstacle they were running towards, and stop.

[Shadow_Imperator]

Mind you.. Peasants armed with little more than a twig is one thing, some reasonably heavy and professional spearmen that are well armed and armoured. Could and should be able to keep knights and heavy cavalry in check... here I'm thinking along the lines of Order Foot Soldiers, Swiss Pikemen, Saracen Spearmen, Skoutatoi/Kontaratoi and Hoplitai..

[Basileios]

The Skoutatoi & Kontaratoi can defeat Knights in the game as well! As long as the heavy spear- or pikemen have some numerical advantage they have a good chance to hold their ground against knights or can even cut them down when used offensively.
On the other hand I too consider both pikemen and heavy cavalry to strong! Sure knights and other heavy cavalry dominate the battlefield until they come against trained and disiplined heavy spear- or pikemen, but an other option would be to kill their horses with archery! In the game units with >=2HP are usually missleproof! That will be quite well for units riding armoured horses but feudal knights didn't!
In addition to that the AP-ability gives the knights & co a serious advantage over other similar heavy units. The idea to provide the lance charge with an AP bonus is a superb idea, but ones the charge is broken they'll certainly have to fight with other troops on an equal footing.
As far as I can remember the pikemen are provided with an AP bonus for their pikes, too. While historicly they were effectively only against cavalry when in formation, in the game they're as effective against any other armoured troops as well! In addition to that they can even be used offensively against cavalry...
In order to fix this issue, I'd suggest to confine the 2nd HP to units on armoured horses and the AP ability to units carrying maces, axes and other truely armourbreaking weapons.

Btw an interesting note: Both the Praecepta militaria & Taktika of Nikephoros Uranos considered enemy (Muslim) heavy infantry (even with pikes or menavlia) ineffective against Byzantine Kataphraktoi!