Some unit unbalances

[Celestial_92]

The Spartan Hoplite in custom battle is stronger then the Greek Sacred Band, while they are equal in costs. And the Gastraphetes (Seleucids) are way to strong. 3 battalions, along with 3 silver shields have given me countles victories.

Other then that, this mod is awesome. Good work

[Hurlbut]

Spartan Hoplite is supposed to be stronger, because they are considered superior in training and skill as hoplites.
Gastraphetes have ahigh cost recruitment and building requirement, the idea is that you can only manage to field a few units at a time.

[Archbaker]

The balance on Spartan hoplites is that they can only be trained in Sparta, so in custom battle you should just select them every time.

[snuggans]

The Spartan Hoplite in custom battle is stronger then the Greek Sacred Band

equal in cost? i thought the spartans cost 8000, and the sacred band is around 1200?

i would say units like thureophoroi are the unbalanced ones, as they are TRUE skirmishers (unlike thorikitai or hypaspists) yet they can last a reasonable time when fighting or getting charged by cavalry.

[Warmaster]

The Spartan Hoplite in custom battle is stronger then the Greek Sacred Band, while they are equal in costs. And the Gastraphetes (Seleucids) are way to strong. 3 battalions, along with 3 silver shields have given me countles victories.

Other then that, this mod is awesome. Good work

The reason they aren't balanced is because DBH has not gotten around to balancing the cost of units in custom battles. It's not really a high priority either, I would imagine, as the campaigns are generally more important. And besides, it's hard to sort out unit balancing in custom battles when XGM is constantly adding/removing units from the faction rosters.

equal in cost? i thought the spartans cost 8000, and the sacred band is around 1200?

i would say units like thureophoroi are the unbalanced ones, as they are TRUE skirmishers (unlike thorikitai or hypaspists) yet they can last a reasonable time when fighting or getting charged by cavalry.

You're mixing up the costs in custom battles (which is what we're discussing here) and the cost of them in the campaigns, which are different. In custom the Spartan royal guard costs 1200, which is the same as a sacred band. In the campaign I think they're more expensive than sacred bands.

[psrz]

The Spartan Hoplite in custom battle is stronger then the Greek Sacred Band, while they are equal in costs. And the Gastraphetes (Seleucids) are way to strong. 3 battalions, along with 3 silver shields have given me countles victories.

Other then that, this mod is awesome. Good work

i totally agree. It seems gastraphetes use depleted uranium arrows or something ... playing seleucids, when you can train them, battles are way too easy... ( you need army barracks, that's not a hard goal in antioch ) if there are enough enemies, one single battalion can easily kill 400 men. and if they are "rookies" , that body count gives them up 4 points of experience.

my favourite "little" army: 1 general, 4 gastraphetes, 1 greek hoplites (they can run...) , 1 phalanx pikemen or silver shield.
the only thing they are not effective against to is elephants ( they dont have flaming arrows and those fat beasts have a lot of hit points )
ah, if anyone asks, i'm playing seleucids in medium difficulty

and yes , this mod is great...

[Hurlbut]

I dubs thee the thread necromancer.

[chazap]

well, in a recent campaign Greeks vs Romans, settings VH/M, i swarmed a group of about 100 gladiator warriors (small shiel and sword or spear)...with about 8 calvary units (we're talking 650+ horses!!), 4 of them being generals....they actually killed 2 of my generals and decimated about 2/3 of my calvary!!! and they were actually going to win!! that's pretty unbalanced!! i only managed to kill about 32 of the warriors... i don't care how tough of an SOB you are, if you are surrounded like that, you shouldn't be able to win....anyways, i was soooo disgusted i restarted the battle and resorted to shoot them in the back with my archers! oh yeah, i'm playing 5.5.19, i believe.

[Scutarii]

Well, gladiators are spearmen and have 2 hit points (unless thats changed from vanilla. They are also very good in an extended melee engangement, so a cavalry charge from anywhere not the back (and it better be engaged from the front too) is not ideal.

[chazap]

Well, gladiators are spearmen and have 2 hit points (unless thats changed from vanilla. They are also very good in an extended melee engangement, so a cavalry charge from anywhere not the back (and it better be engaged from the front too) is not ideal.

i hear you, but that doesn't explain how they could possibly win, being that the numbers were stacked against them...it was an open field, as i "swarmed" them...

[RedFox]

Should have been a 'clear victory', as any cavalry, even the worst in quality would just run over them.
There are many unit unbalances in XGM, one of the most noticeable is the SRG - Sacred Band. First of all, Spartans weren't no super soldiers, just very well trained troops - so something on par with Hypaspist, or Heavy Phalanx - the Royal Guard perhaps would be as well trained as the Silver Shields.

Most noticeable fact though, is that Theban Sacred Band is supposed to beat Spartans up front, but in fact it doesn't, which IMHO should be fixed.

Also, simply removing the bp attr from Gastraphetes will pretty much balance them - they are then merely an archer unit with a very strong attack - the bp feature made the arrows impale several men apiece and would often grant instant kills, which is just not real for a simple arrow, even if it's fired from a "mini-ballista" (crossbow).

[pwijnands]

I have another unbalanced unit: Rhodian slingers, I charged a unit of these with my general and almost half the bodyguard died on impact. It just looked real silly to have so many elite bodyguards die to these units (that were in a very spread out formation). Is this how it's supposed to be?

[Scutarii]

That, I find, happens when charging any spread out formation unit with a small amount of cav. The cav kill more than they lose, but since they are usually pursuing, they lose that all-important charge bonus. Remember, most generals either don't have shields or don't have swords, and that combined with the fact that they have a small number (and they don't have 2 hit points anymore!) of bodyguards makes them not the greatest unit to be chargin on its own into the enemy, even missiles.

[DimeBagHo]

RedFox: The Sacred Band are not meant to be comparable to the Theban Sacred Band - after all the polis which produced them had been wiped out before the game period. They are just meant to be very good hoplites. The Royal Guard is unrealistically good, but that's why you only get one.

I'll take the bp effect off the Gastraphetes though.

pwijnands: You can't really tell much from a single engagement because there are a lot of factors that can produce a surprising result. The slingers might have had high experience, or the terrain might have been bad (scrub is sometimes hard to spot, and it gives bonuses to most light infantry and penalties to most cavalry).

[atraps]

(scrub is sometimes hard to spot, and it gives bonuses to most light infantry and penalties to most cavalry).

Dime do u know wat scrub (in RTW) really is? If u do (and if its not too much bother), could u tell me wat it looks like? I have asked this question already in the Romes Workshop section but it seems no1 there knows 100% wat it is...


p.s. sorry for digging up this topic, and bringing it back to life again

[DimeBagHo]

Scrub looks a lot like some other ground types, except that it has small plants scattered about on it - not just grass or bare sand. I have also seen people express skepticism about whether the scrub modifier really does anything.

[pwijnands]

I probably should have read the unit stats then (still under the assumption all bodyguards received two hitpoints). The terrain wasn't anything special either. As far as I know they positioned themselves on a slight hill (I hate it when the AI does that) covered in grass only.
Although it just seemed a bit weird to see (almost) half the bodyguard die on impact and seeing them "shaken" from engaging a group of slingers. I must say that I really like the new armoured Rhodian slingers and Cretan Archers.

[Kara Kolyo]

The rhodian slingers can be deadly against cavalry. As a matter of fact any slingers could be, just the rhodians are a bit better. One thing that could have happened is that the slingers fired at your bodyguard at the moment of impact. Those ap bullets are great. I bet that some of them had inscriptions like "ouch", "get well soon" etc. like in the real antiquity

[Unknown Soldier]

Yeah the one that gets you has your name on it...thats why mine etch 'to whom it may concern' on their bullets! Lol!

[atraps]

oh i see, Thx Dime