Jesus and the Rich Man

[Farnan]

16A man came to Jesus and said, `Teacher, what good thing must I do so that I will live for ever?'

17Jesus said, `Why do you ask me about what is good? Only God is good. If you want to live for ever, you must keep God's laws.'

18The man said, `Which laws?' Jesus said, `Do not kill. Do not commit adultery. Do not steal. Do not tell lies.

19Respect your father and your mother. Love your neighbour as you love yourself.'

20The young man said, `I have kept all those laws. What more must I do?'

21Jesus said, `If you want to be all right, go and sell everything you have. Give the money to poor people. For this you will be rich in heaven. Then come and go with me.'

22When the young man heard that, he was sad, because he was very rich. So he went away.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, `I tell you the truth. It is very hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

24And I tell you this also. It is easier for a big animal like a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'

25When the disciples heard this, they were very much surprised. They said, `Then who can be saved?'

26Jesus looked at them and said, `Men cannot do it, but God can do anything.'

27Then Peter said, `See, we have left all things and have come with you. So what will we have?'

28Jesus said to them, `I tell you the truth. In the new world, the Son of Man will be great. He will sit on his throne of glory [big chair of a king] to rule. Then you who have come with me will also sit on twelve thrones. You will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

29If anyone has left his house, his brothers, his sisters, his father, his mother, his children, or his farms for my sake, he will receive a hundred times as much as he has left. And he will live for ever.

30But many people who are first will be last, and those who are last will be first.'

This here is one of the famous sermons of Jesus to his disciples. It has many strange interpretations, some trying to justify one side or another. However, I favor a different interpretation than the norm for this story.

My interpretation is thus, what Jesus is saying through this story is not about riches, though they play a part. His point was that nothing we can do can win us a way into Heavan, no one is good enough. The reason he gave the difficulty for the rich is simple, the rich man who loves money will place higher than their willigness to follow the will of God. However Jesus says the following:

25When the disciples heard this, they were very much surprised. They said, `Then who can be saved?'

26Jesus looked at them and said, `Men cannot do it, but God can do anything.'

This is the most important part. Jesus is saying that no matter what you do in life, how successful you are, nothing you can do can get you into Heavan. The only thing that can is the grace of God.


Any comments? And please refrain from comments in the vein of "HAHA dumb theists me atheist so me so smart."

[Chaigidel]

I agree with the interpretation that the man will love money more than god; hence sooner will a camel pass through an eye of a needle so to speak.

[Sosobra]

This is the most important part. Jesus is saying that no matter what you do in life, how successful you are, nothing you can do can get you into Heavan.


Any comments? And please refrain from comments in the vein of "HAHA dumb theists me atheist so me so smart."

Jesus was very clever orator and this sermon shows that. He is very much playing to the crowd with his examples . God does not care about your social status but people are more receptive towards stories that they can identity with and at that time (hell even now ) most people where poor and the undertones of the rich being on equally grounds as the poor is very appealing. The story also leaves room for an interpretation of sticking it to the rich and the poor always love that.

The only thing that can is the grace of God.

And the Catholic upbring in me would add that Good acts are derived from the grace of God, and so its acts and grace.

oh and HAHA Me Agnostic me smarter than you

[CyberFist]

Well, the NT repeatedly states that we are saved by the grace of God, not by any outward actions we may perform, i.e. we can't create salvation for ourselves. The offer is open to all. All we have to do is accept that offer.

The thing about riches - well, Jesus lived almost a communal lifestyle with his disciples - based on the principal that "God will provide".

Jesus said (Mt 6:25ff) "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?"

It is a pity how televangelists and some other Christian groups have warped this idea into the notion of financial "prosperity" and "give us money and God will give you more money back". Quite disgraceful, really.

I think the message is in essence

"If you can't give up worldly things for your faith, then forget it, you have lost already."

And the Catholic upbring in me would add that Good acts are derived from the grace of God, and so its acts and grace.

Faith without works is dead.

"Good" works without faith are useless with regards to personal salvation. But good works inspired of faith are not

[Sosobra]

Faith without works is dead.

"Good" works without faith are useless with regards to personal salvation. But good works inspired of faith are not

But doing Good works just for the sake of personal salvation seems a little self centered don't you think. Ideally good works should be done implicitly without regards to personal gain (material or spiritual) .

[CyberFist]

But doing Good works just for the sake of personal salvation seems a little self centered don't you think. Ideally good works should be done implicitly without regards to personal gain (material or spiritual) .

If you are saved and have the Holy Spirit within you, good deeds would not be committed in order to attain salvation. You already have it. They would rather be an outpouring of the Spirit of God.

[Thanatos]

But doing Good works just for the sake of personal salvation seems a little self centered don't you think. Ideally good works should be done implicitly without regards to personal gain (material or spiritual) .

We are not perfect, and it is impossible for us to be completely selfish, as Jesus is, for we are not Him.

It's also a bit hard to be totally unselfish in your actions when you have the threat of Hell dangling over your head.

[ENSAIS]

Well, the NT repeatedly states that we are saved by the grace of God, not by any outward actions we may perform, i.e. we can't create salvation for ourselves. The offer is open to all. All we have to do is accept that offer.
...
It is a pity how televangelists and some other Christian groups have warped this idea into the notion of financial "prosperity" and "give us money and God will give you more money back". Quite disgraceful, really.

I think the message is in essence

"If you can't give up worldly things for your faith, then forget it, you have lost already."

Faith without works is dead.

THIS has been the part of the conversation concerning Matthew 19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9;&version=49; that I am most interested in. I agree with the first part of your comment that our works do not save us. I would specify that "all we have to do" is actually repent. True acceptance of God's saving grace through the revelation of His son (Matthew 16:17) renders the Christian a new creation, old things passed away, all things become new (2 Corinthians 5:17)... and that brings forth fruit exeplifying repentence (Matthew 3:8-10; Matthew 7:17-19). So though the works themselves are not what is saving the Christian--soley the unmerited favor of God, bestowed when in faith we believe on the name of Jesus Christ to salvation-- righteous works will be evident as a consequence of the truly changed life.

To your second point, perhaps the warped prosperity gospel focus not a good example of righteous fruit but rather of Luke 8:14 "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection".

To me the point of the conversation Jesus had in Matthew 19 is that the rich young man was so choked out by the cares, riches, and pleasures of his life that despite an the audible call by Jesus Christ for him to follow Him, he turned away. A lifetime of well-intentioned good works did not enable him to follow God's will for his life by anwering His direct call. In contrast, others who became discliples mightily used by Him, immediately left all to follow Christ when He called (Matthew 4:18-20).

[basics]

ENSAIS,

Further to your excellent post there are two points that you miss. In your last sentence you mention the calling of Jesus, the most important part of the subject regarding the rich man.

It is God who calls and those who know His voice, that is those whose names are in the book of life that will respond. Repentence by itself can only prepare for what may be the calling of God but not necessarily so. This we saw by the work of John the Baptist who called on people to repent.

Yet this repentence was no more than preparation for a higher source of calling, that being the renewal of souls by the washing of blood. That was not just repentence but also conviction, but it is the latter that brings on the former, both in themselves a working of God.

That working is seen as the righteousness of God being revealed to them that will believe, the consequence of conviction and repentence, for all men must know what it is that separates them from God in the first place. That is what the calling, which is only from God, Jesus as in this case, means.

Didn't mean to preach but there you are. May I wish you and any who read this a wonderful Christmas and a New Year that brings contentment.

[Spurius]

BTW the camel from the story makes no sense, and indeed should be 'gamel' - rope. A rope doesn't go through the eye of a needle for obvious reasons too, but makes sense.

I think the basic lesson here is that you cannot have real friends if you're rich - you never know if your friends like you for what you are, or your money. Hence it separates you from your neighbour.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

BTW the camel from the story makes no sense, and indeed should be 'gamel' - rope. A rope doesn't go through the eye of a needle for obvious reasons too, but makes sense.

A few later manuscripts do have the Greek word as "kamilon" (rope), but this simply seems to be a misreading of "kamhlon" (camel); the form found in the earlier manuscripts. The Babylonian Talmud also has a saying about an elephant passing through the eye of a needle as a metaphor for something which is impossible, so it's more likely that "camel" was the original meaning in the text.

Some people try to claim Jesus was referring to a narrow gate in Jerusalem called "the Needle's Eye" which a camel could pass through with some difficulty, but this gate wasn't built until the Middle Ages.

The text has Jesus saying it's impossible for a rich man to attain the kingdom of God, but then saying that God can make all things possible.

[Thanatos]

The needle was a short gate in the side of Jerusalem, Spurius.

Jesus was not being literal, as in a needle needle.

[Spurius]

The needle was a short gate in the side of Jerusalem, Spurius.

Jesus was not being literal, as in a needle needle.

I know that story, but I happen to believe it's a later fabrication. The word gamel DOES mean rope, however.

[Thanatos]

Then that's your own opinion.

[Spurius]

Nope. Here's a link, and in Aramaic it would have been gimla. Enjoy.

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm

[Thanatos]

If what the website says is true, it's all semantics as to the translation.

Nevertheless, at least the meaning stays the same.

[Spurius]

Nope again, stuff should make sense, even to little children.

[Chaigidel]

(just in case your rich and you want to follow me)

[Farnan]

Oratators at the time were known for grandiose metaphors. Thus a camel going through a needle is a great metaphor for them, no chance of being misinterpreted by the majority of the audience, and furthermore are two things the common person can relate to.

I agree with Cyberfist in that this is also a condemnation of greed. To Jesus and early Christianity greed was one of the worse evils, according to Jesus himself the root of all evil (greed not money). Thus this rich man shows the eptimone of love of money when he is offered eternal salvation but declines it due to the fact he loves his money too much.

24`No man can work for two masters. He will hate one and love the other. Or he will obey one and despise the other. You cannot work for both God and money.

[Spurius]

Yeah, funny how Christianity is a bit janus-faced on richess. Zoroastrian Parsees are pretty clear on it, get as filthy rich as you can without prostituting yourself, and then make other people happy with it, just use your excess to good, where you can, without forgetting yourself.

Has something to say for it, provided you can keep greed at bay.