BC Research: Siege Weapons and Pyrotechnics!

[Randarkmaan]

I Just got myself "Medieval siege weapons (2) Byzantium, India and the Islamic World" and thought I would share something from that book, may be useful if BC wants to portray the technology used in the Middle East more properly in a later version.


Torsion Powered Engines
Of these I am sure that the Muslims used both types, they usually adopted whatever seemed good that they encountered, and that the Byzantiens used at least the alakation

The largest type of Qaws Ziyar described by al-Tarusi

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Byzantine alakation or ballista

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Great Crossbows
All these are Muslim weapons... except the first one which is also Byzantine.

Frame-mounted toxobolistra or jarkh

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Crossbow to shoot 'eggs of naft' (this one looks and sounds pretty awesome)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Multiple crossbows in a rotating tower, according to al-Tarusi

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Mangonels
There are four types of mangonels + the counterweight mangonel AKA trebuchet, the Muslims used all types. Counter-weight mangonels were introduced in the mid 12th century and put to great use in the late 12th century.

'Turkish-style' manjaniq (mangonel)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Rumi or 'Frankish-style' manjaniq

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Lu'ab or swivel manjaniq

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Byzantine petrabole or 'Arab-style' manjaniq
This was the most complicated, but also the most accurate and reliable of the (non counter-weight) mangonels

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Earliest known type of counter-weight manjaniq as described by al-Tarusi

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pyrotechnical Weapons
Incendiary weapons were widely used in the Middle East, most extensively by the Muslims. An important thing to note is that they made siege towers, and other wooden ramparts for assaulting walls, obsolete. Usually only elite fire-troops, naffatun, operated pyrotechnical equipment, they had very high status, pay and training. Though the simpler grenades could have been used by urban militias and some other troops as well, many were "simply" projectiles for missile weapons (ballistas, crossbows, etc).

Naft Zarraqa... Flamethrower!!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ceramic grenades

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Incendiary missiles

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hand-gun, late 14th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Enjoy!

[Fenix_120]

This is so cool, I think I wet myself when I clicked the button that shows the grenades!

Thanks for the find man!

[The Mongol]

We've had a couple siege threads but from what I remember it's a no go. Tough to animate and model the buggers.

With that said, I don't think it hurts to discuss siege machines of the time. That "egg of naft" crossbow is amazing. I'm surprised CA didn't include it. Also, from what it looks like the Persians invented the Potato Masher

[Randarkmaan]

We've had a couple siege threads but from what I remember it's a no go. Tough to animate and model the buggers.

Yeah, yeah, I know. It at least shows what could be possibly (with difficulty) be done.
The naft-crossbow wouldn't be that hard however, the trebuchet is already in, as is the balista, and the flamethrower would simply be a reskinned greek firethrower (which it seems the Muslims could also get)

[Ahiga]

Very interesting Randarkmaan. The Grenades widespread availability is interesting, I didn't hear of them in Transoxania before, but it's natural they'd be up there.

If one could adjust the projectile, then I think the egg crossbow would be possible. Replace the crossbow bolts in flight, make the ammunition fired have an area-effect (Small one) and be the naffatun 'explosion' visually.

I don't know if it's possible, but it seems viable.

[Ma'ahes]

Would the naffa eggs be shorter range as well? Perhaps nothing as short as a javelin, but having it as long as a regular bow would be a bit insane. Cool, of course, but insane.

[Ahiga]

Well, before we could consider them being balanced we'd have to see if they are even possible, but it would be likely they'd be much less accurate, and have a shorter range.

[Fenix_120]

Call me crazy but don't oval shaped objects have a terrible trajectory?


I seem to remember someone saying that you would have more luck hitting something with a square block shaped thing than an oval, becuase even though the square would hit with less impact the oval would fly off in any direction.

I'm not a rocket scientist though.


EDIT: it seems that many Batista's fired Oval shaped stones instead of bolts though... so I guess I answered my own question.

[Keravnos]

Very interesting Find. +Rep

Thank you Randarkmaan . Now if a gentle soul could animate some of them, I am sure they would be feasible.

My question is as we do know how the greek flamethrowers looked like, then why aren't they portrayed like that ingame? Right now the Byz. flamethrowers from vanilla kingdoms look like they fought in Nam.

[Ahiga]

Very interesting Find. +Rep

Thank you Randarkmaan . Now if a gentle soul could animate some of them, I am sure they would be feasible.

My question is as we do know how the greek flamethrowers looked like, then why aren't they portrayed like that ingame? Right now the Byz. flamethrowers from vanilla kingdoms look like they fought in Nam.

My presumption is that CA knew of the naval Naffatun launchers, but not the hand-held, and went with the naval design for hand held.

[Fenix_120]

Hey Randarkmaan, did your book say anything about those exploding balista bolts filled with Greek fire?

[IrAr]

If implemented, perhaps crossbow-fired naffutun could be like flaming ammunition, with much less ammunition? Maybe like the diseased cows for the trebuchets?

[Strelac]

I started to develop something like this http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/2497/turkishxh3.png
but animations for units to pull the lever instead of weight showed to be unbearable, so I gave up.
I am making sort of light mangonel (weight operated) which would fire naphtha-like grenades. I would only included it as spawn unit for AI to help with siege defenses against human.
The 'kill effect' of such machine can be regulated by accuracy, ammo count, and other....
Will see, maybe it makes into the BC someday.

[IrAr]

Strelac, you're always seventeen steps ahead! Is there anything, M2TW modding related that you can't do?
No one answer this, its just praise! I said no one! Back off, smart ***es!.

[The Mongol]

Totally forgot Strelac had some animating prowess.

A light anti infantry nafta catapult would be really cool.

[CelticPagan]

Arrrgh! Ahiga, how many months now have I been advocating grenades?

As for the animation of the explosion, would it not look and act better if it were taken from the explosive cannon balls? That way it is schrapnel damage and not fire.

[The Prophet]

Can't wait to use new weapons for Borken Cresent!

[whhyy]

Kingdoms adds new a new 'Incendiary' attribute for units like Naffatun. It uses new FX and leaves fire on the ground for a short period of time.

[Randarkmaan]

Hey Randarkmaan, did your book say anything about those exploding balista bolts filled with Greek fire?

The round grenade with the hole in it is probably so it can be fitted on a javelin (to be fired from a balista)

Also if many of the pyrotechnical weapons are later included, it would be cool if they had their own building to be trained from. As they were a separate and élite element of many armies.
you could for an example have grenadiers on tier 1, "egg-crossbows" (eggmen?) on tier 2, and flamethrowers on tier 3.
It also seems feasible that more factions could use the rocket launcher (used only by the Mongols in the original Medieval 2). If it wouldn't be too boring it would be cool to see different factions' grenadiers throw different grenades (as many of them look quite nice and interesting, not to mention the Persian "potato masher")

[CelticPagan]

Randarkmaan, I don't know whether to hug you or hit you, but you forced me to get this book (you have a habit of doing that ) And may I say WOW, it has some great info!

Now that Kievian Rus are being considered for BC 2.0, hows about posting the Rus' "Wheel of Fire"? (I would but my scanner is acting up). This may give Strelac time to figure out an animation for it

+REP for you great find. Keep me informed of other great books. My bank account may hate ya, but I don't