An Idea...

[Fenix_120]

Ok so it goes like this.


Remove the bodyguard units totally from the game.

Instead of an uber powered body guard unit the faction will use what ever quality body guards it can use.

For an example, early in the game England will use feudal Knights for its body guard and upgrade to English Knights who then upgrade into Lancers.

Frances will follow roughly the same rout except instead of upgrading to English Knights they will upgrade to Noble Knights.

The Germans will go from Feudal to Imperial to Gothic.

Early in the game Egypt will have Ghulams and high era they will use that Kataphract-like unit that was added in kingdoms thats starts with a K(Kyssic?) and upgrade to Royal Mameluks.


The Turks will start off with their heavy calvary unit that was added in Kingdoms and upgrade to Spahi's and then Qapukulu.

The Mongols and Tumurids will simply use Khans guard.

The Byzantines will use Kataphracts early in game and later upgrade to their tougher Kataphracts that Kingdoms added.


Free up some unit slots and help balance game play.

What do you think?

[y2day]

Sounds interesting. Atleast it would free up unit slots.

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

Isn't that hardcoded though?

[Landwalker]

Isn't that hardcoded though?

I don't think so--I frequently run across named Rebel generals who have a bodyguard unit other than General's Bodyguard (such as mailed knights).

I actually remember changing the General unit for a faction in Europa Barbarorum from the glass-jaw chariots to a respectable heavy infantry unit, so I know it can be done. However, I think you can only have one "evolution" (i.e. only one change from one bodyguard type to another), and that could be hard-coded. I also don't know whether or not you can subdivide the pre-existing bodyguard groupings (Northern European, Southern European, Eastern European, etc.) into specific factional groupings--I imagine you can, but it's outside my experience and knowledge.

If you want to change the bodyguard unit, here (I think, don't hold me to this) is what to do. We'll use the Byzantines for an example.

In the EDU, you'll find

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type Greek Bodyguard
dictionary Greek_Bodyguard ; General's Bodyguard
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type General
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Greek_Bodyguard, 8, 0, 1
mount eastern armoured horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw, general_unit
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square
stat_health 2, 0
stat_pri 6, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 8, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 10, 4, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, 0
stat_mental 13, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1100, 250, 120, 95, 1100, 1, 200
armour_ug_levels 3, 4
armour_ug_models Greek_Bodyguard, Greek_Bodyguard_ug1
ownership byzantium
era 0 byzantium
era 1 byzantium
era 2 byzantium

Now, if I remember correctly, what you want to do is copy everything from the unit entry of whatever you want to replace this with--we'll say, cataphracts--except for the first two lines. You'll then want to replace everything in the above entry (except the first two lines) with the cataphract paste, so you end up with:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type Greek Bodyguard
dictionary Greek_Bodyguard ; General's Bodyguard
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Kataphractoi, 24, 0, 1
mount eastern armoured horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, general_unit
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square, wedge
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 4, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 50, 1
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 14, 3, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, 0
stat_mental 14, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1500, 360, 120, 95, 1500, 4, 190
armour_ug_levels 4, 5
armour_ug_models Kataphractoi, Kataphractoi_ug1
ownership byzantium
era 0 byzantium
era 1 byzantium
era 2 byzantium

You can then make whatever modifications you might want to make--reduce the number of soldiers by half and increase their hit points, for example--and voila, you have a new bodyguard type. Suggested changes:

--Change the line "voice_type Heavy" to "voice_type General"
--Reduce the upkeep costs to coincide with normal general upkeep (Thus, change "stat_cost 1, 1500, 360, 120, 95, 1500, 4, 190" to "stat_cost 1, 1100, 250, 120, 95, 1100, 1, 200"
--Be absolutely certain to add the attribute "general_unit" to the new entry.
--You may need to remove the attribute "can_formed_charge". I really have no idea here.
--If you so desire, halve the quantity and double the hit points. This would involve changing "soldier Kataphractoi, 24, 0, 1" to "soldier Kataphractoi, 12, 0, 1" and "stat_health 1, 0" to "stat_health 2, 0"

If you make all of these changes, you'll end up with this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type Greek Bodyguard
dictionary Greek_Bodyguard ; General's Bodyguard
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type general
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Kataphractoi, 12, 0, 1
mount eastern armoured horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, general_unit
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square, wedge
stat_health 2, 0
stat_pri 5, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 4, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 50, 1
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 14, 3, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, 0
stat_mental 14, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1100, 250, 120, 95, 1100, 1, 200
armour_ug_levels 4, 5
armour_ug_models Kataphractoi, Kataphractoi_ug1
ownership byzantium
era 0 byzantium
era 1 byzantium
era 2 byzantium

And that should do it. Feel free to try it and let me know how it works.

Cheers.

[Landwalker]

As a follow-up to that last post, since I'm bored and don't want to study for my Latin final tomorrow, I went ahead and took a crack at it. I'm pleased to report success:



You can see that they are identified as General's Bodyguard by the mouse-over, but that they are in fact Kataphractoi, both in model and in the fact that they're using a mace as their secondary weapon instead of a sword (the usual weapon of early Greek bodyguards).

Thus, you should be able to follow the instructions above to achieve similar results with the various categories of other bodyguards--Northern European, Middle Eastern, etc. I don't know how to make it unique for each faction, but you can at least get it down by region. Just be sure you pick a bodyguard type that is available to all the factions in that category--Don't make Northern European bodyguards use Lancers, for example, because only France has Lancer models.

I think if I poke around long enough, I'll figure out how to achieve faction-specific bodyguard units, but I unfortunately don't have the time today. I suspect it would basically involve a separate entry for each faction and certain fiddling with the labels/entries and such, and I don't know whether or not that would play havoc with the "unit cap". However, one could probably figure this out just by looking at the Teutonic Bodyguard entry.

Cheers.

[Inhuman One]

I think that if you do this, no general can risk fighting since their chances at survival would be rather small.

[Landwalker]

I think that if you do this, no general can risk fighting since their chances at survival would be rather small.

Why would their odds of survival be so small? Especially if you increased hit points, they should be every bit as tough as usual. In the case of the Byzantines, at least, they actually become even tougher, since Kataphracts are stronger than early Greek Bodyguards.

Cheers.

[xeryx]

I like this idea!! Gives a much better feel to the game!!

[Landwalker]

I agree, and I'm considering doing it myself. If I figure out how to give factions "unique" bodyguards, I'm definitely going to make some changes:

Byzantines: Kataphractoi --> Archontopuloi
Kiev and Novgorod: I like these, but I would consider changing the early bodyguards to Druzhina or Boyar Sons, then the late to Tsars Guard and Kievan Nobles, respectively. Of course, I wouldn't mind keeping them as is.
Denmark and Norway: Maybe Feudal Knights, but I like Huscarls better. Probably Chivalric Knights later on.
England: Feudal Knights, then English Knights
France: Feudal Knights, then... Noble Knight? Lancers?
Sicily: Come on, Norman Knights. Then, I suppose, Chivalric Knights.
Milan: Feudal Knights, then Famiglia Ducale.
Venice: Something boring, like Feudal --> Chivalric. Eh.
Germany: Feudal Knights, then Imperial Knights. Maybe Gothic Knights, but I'm not sure.

And so on. Good times.

Cheers.

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

Great news!

[y2day]

Thanks Landwalker. At first I thought it sounded cool, but actually seeing it I now really love the idea. Not just for the additional unit slots but also for realism.

Fenix great idea man.

[IceBeast]

I whole heartedly support this idea. However, I do think some effort will need to be put in to balance generals against there standard unit type and against the other generals. For example, a generals Kataphractoi should probably be a little stronger than a standard Kataphractoi, and most generals units should be roughly equal. I'd be a little miffed if my 15 unit 5 command general lost decisively to a 15 unit 5 command general of a different faction.

[Decimus Atreides]

I actually tried this with byzantine heavy spearmen, with a unit size of 7, and so I got a byzantine infantry general now

[Valdamar]

If someone could release this for all the factions I'd owe them copious amounts of Belgian beer.

Great idea chipmunk man!

[Landwalker]

But, following up on Fenix's original postulation that each faction should use what it has available, shouldn't it be the case that not all bodyguards are created equal? After all, the best available to an early-era England probably shouldn't be comparable to the best available to the Byzantine Empire.

I also have a couple of questions: (1) What are the triggers for late bodyguards? (2) Is it possible to simple add, say, lances to a unit like Huscarls without having to screw around with animations and such?

Cheers.

[Lord Condormanius]

I also have a couple of questions: (1) What are the triggers for late bodyguards?

None. Late Bodyguards are only used in custom battles.

(2) Is it possible to simple add, say, lances to a unit like Huscarls without having to screw around with animations and such?

No, it is not possible to do this without adjusting models.

I have been doing this with my mod all along. For instance, my Irish faction uses a dismounted unit for the early bodyguard.

[Landwalker]

None. Late Bodyguards are only used in custom battles.



No, it is not possible to do this without adjusting models.

I have been doing this with my mod all along. For instance, my Irish faction uses a dismounted unit for the early bodyguard.

That's what I thought. It seems pointless for there to be late bodyguards if you can't ever use them in the campaign. It also really presents the problem of how to manage the evolution of bodyguards, since you obviously don't want your general to be running around as a Feudal Knight for the whole campaign...

Cheers.

[Lord Condormanius]

That's what I thought. It seems pointless for there to be late bodyguards if you can't ever use them in the campaign. It also really presents the problem of how to manage the evolution of bodyguards, since you obviously don't want your general to be running around as a Feudal Knight for the whole campaign...

Cheers.

You very well may be able to do this with a script...Although it might make sense to just make the late bodyguards upgrades that require late era buildings

[IceBeast]

But, following up on Fenix's original postulation that each faction should use what it has available, shouldn't it be the case that not all bodyguards are created equal? After all, the best available to an early-era England probably shouldn't be comparable to the best available to the Byzantine Empire.

I wasn't claiming that they should be equal, I was claiming they should be relatively balanced. I'm all for one factions bodyguards being stronger than others, but I feel that the bodyguards should generally be stronger than their base unit, and that one set of bodyguards should not be leaps and bounds better than another,

[Byg]

Bear in mind that you may lose any special abilities when you make a general of another unit, so any that have wedge formation would lose it.

Back in Rome TW they tried with foot soldiers. Pikemen couldn't form phalanxes and legionaries could not form a tortoise.