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  1. #1
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Killed for Clothes

    Vigilantes Kill 40 Women in Iraq's South
    By SINAN SALAHEDDIN, AP
    Sun Dec 9, 6:14 PM EST
    Religious vigilantes have killed at least 40 women this year in the southern Iraqi city of Basra because of how they dressed, their mutilated bodies found with notes warning against "violating Islamic teachings," the police chief said Sunday.

    Maj. Gen. Jalil Khalaf blamed sectarian groups that he said were trying to impose a strict interpretation of Islam. They dispatch patrols of motorbikes or unlicensed cars with tinted windows to accost women not wearing traditional dress and head scarves, he added.

    "The women of Basra are being horrifically murdered and then dumped in the garbage with notes saying they were killed for un-Islamic behavior," Khalaf told The Associated Press. He said men with Western clothes or haircuts are also attacked in Basra, an oil-rich city some 30 miles from the Iranian border and 340 miles southeast of Baghdad.

    "Those who are behind these atrocities are organized gangs who work under cover of religion, pretending to spread the instructions of Islam, but they are far from this religion," Khalaf said.

    Throughout Iraq, many women wear a headscarf and others wear a full face veil although secular women are often unveiled. Since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein and the rise of a Shiite-dominated government, armed men in some parts of the country have sometimes forced women to cover their heads or face punishment. In some areas of the heavily Shiite south, even Christian women have been forced to wear headscarves.

    Before the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, Basra, Iraq's second-largest city, was known for its mixed population and night life. Now, in some areas, red graffiti threatens any woman who wears makeup and appears with her hair uncovered: "Your makeup and your decision to forgo the headscarf will bring you death."

    Khalaf said bodies have been found in garbage dumps with bullet holes, decapitated or otherwise mutilated with a sheet of paper nearby saying, "she was killed for adultery," or "she was killed for violating Islamic teachings." In September, the headless bodies of a woman and her 6-year-old son were among those found, he said. A total of 40 deaths were reported this year.

    "We believe the number of murdered women is much higher, as cases go unreported by their families who fear reprisal from extremists," he said.

    Harith al-Ithari, who works in the Basra offices of the Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, said the conservative religious movement opposed the killings and blamed "gangs with foreign support to destabilize the city."

    "There is a concrete religious principle that says that wearing makeup and forgoing the hijab (headscarf) in public is a sin," al-Ithari said. "But killing them is a sin bigger than this one."

    Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
    Forty women killed for wearing "westernized" clothing. Just another attrocity to argue against dogmatic belief systems. Now I will not say that this is a negative representation of Islam, but in fact I believe that this is the predictable outcome of dogmatic absolutist religions and philosophies.

    Anyone agree, disagree? I believe that reletavistic morality based on compassion and love (not the "list" of western religions) is the only way to achieve a society which can not only opperate ethically, but can change with the times.

    Unchanging "moral" codes forgo any claim to compassion.
    Last edited by Irishman; December 09, 2007 at 09:34 PM.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    Relative morality is a falsehood. It only possible if you don't believe truth is absolute.
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  3. #3
    kev-o's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    Did you hear about the Muslim woman in Australia who is a lifeguard and wears full body bathing suite to conform to her beliefs?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
    Forty women killed for wearing "westernized" clothing. Just another attrocity to argue against dogmatic belief systems. Now I will not say that this is a negative representation of Islam, but in fact I believe that this is the predictable outcome of dogmatic absolutist religions and philosophies.

    Anyone agree, disagree? I believe that reletavistic morality based on compassion and love (not the "list" of western religions) is the only way to achieve a society which can not only opperate ethically, but can change with the times.

    Unchanging "moral" codes forgo any claim to compassion.



    "Those who are behind these atrocities are organized gangs who work under cover of religion, pretending to spread the instructions of Islam, but they are far from this religion," Khalaf said.





  5. #5

    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    Considering the fact that these same Islamist terrorists have beheaded little boys on their way to school for simply having a Shia name, this is only natural. This is the natural conclusion of Islamism, to put it frankly. When you have the eternal rewards of hell or heaven involved, its easy to kill a kid for Allah.

    The Taliban Islamists do the same thing in Afghanistan and target young girls when they go to school.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    you know i could've sworn that millions of people have been killed by atheists for being religious





  7. #7

    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansa musa View Post
    you know i could've sworn that millions of people have been killed by atheists for being religious
    No.

    The link most people make is between Communism and Atheism. While Communism is essentially atheist, the millions that died at the hands of Stalin and Mao were not killed because of their religion.


  8. #8
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    Like I said, this is not a comment on Islam. If you read my post you would know this.

    This is in response to having a philosophy which preaches absolute morality, an worse, dictates punishment for that morality.

    Relative morality is a falsehood. It only possible if you don't believe truth is absolute.
    How do you figure? Buddhist morality and principles like the Harm principle make no absolutist moral statements, taking each action and judging which one would be the best action in terms of harm.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
    How do you figure? Buddhist morality and principles like the Harm principle make no absolutist moral statements, taking each action and judging which one would be the best action in terms of harm.
    Thats fine. And I have no problem with Buddhist morals.

    But if you're going to look at morality from a utilitarian perspective, then the information you have avaliable to you will always dictate your best solution. Given a goal, if you have knowledge of the truth then you are best able settle on the most objective choice.

    I understand that knowledge of the truth may be at times unrealistic, but some people try harder than others.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    isn't atheism absolutist?





  11. #11
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    isn't atheism absolutist?
    There is no such thing as a set morality for atheism. Atheism only pertains to the belief in God, nothing more.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  12. #12
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    Anti Theism is absolutist (and a religion by my counts) atheism not really.

    Also hope they find these guys and draw and quater them.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    most atheists i've talken to are anti-theist





  14. #14
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    the only anti Theists I know of are Eclipse and Sephorydem.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  15. #15
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    But if you're going to look at morality from a utilitarian perspective, then the information you have avaliable to you will always dictate your best solution. Given a goal, if you have knowledge of the truth then you are best able settle on the most objective choice.
    But that is not the definition of absolute morality. Absolute morality does not base itself on a formula, but rather a list. For instance, absolute morality will claim that "premarital sex is wrong". And this is an absolutist statement. Utilitarianism cannot make an absolutist statement about an ethical value unless it knows the RELATIVE circumstances, which is the reason it is a RELATIVE moral code.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
    But that is not the definition of absolute morality. Absolute morality does not base itself on a formula, but rather a list. For instance, absolute morality will claim that "premarital sex is wrong". And this is an absolutist statement. Utilitarianism cannot make an absolutist statement about an ethical value unless it knows the RELATIVE circumstances, which is the reason it is a RELATIVE moral code.
    Thats not what I'm talking about.

    "Premarital sex is wrong" is not a declaration merely for the sake of itself. There is some goal in mind. Perhaps it is a useful mechanism to limit some other factor in a way that benefits society according to some apparent objective? Or perhaps we are just obeying some religious doctrine that we hold to be true? Why, though, are we saying these things? There must be a fundamental assumption that we can ascertain the truth value of, unless our definition of "wrong" is completely arbitrary.

    If morality is a tool used to satisfy some objective, you can evaluate a moral code according to how well it satisfies the stated objective. If two societies have exactly the same goals, we can compare moral codes from a utility standpoint. But you cannot evalute the morals of two different societies who hold two different, often times contradictory sets of ideas to be true.
    Last edited by David Deas; December 09, 2007 at 11:00 PM.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    For some reason people think that atheists are some kind of organized movement with a set codex. its mostly individual people who really dont care that much either way. if atheists organized then they would be a religion therefore defeating the purpose.

    "Premarital sex is wrong" is not a declaration for the sake of itself. There is some goal in mind. Perhaps it is a useful mechanism to limit some other factor in a way that benefits society according to some apparent objective? Or perhaps we are just obeying some religious doctrine that we hold to be true?
    its nice knowing someone else gets that, for example look at religions and food.
    Last edited by ProneStar!; December 09, 2007 at 10:29 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    I don't see how they could argue that murdering these women is Islamic.

  19. #19
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    There must be a fundamental assumption that we can ascertain the truth value of, unless our definition of "wrong" is completely arbitrary.
    Right, which I stipulated to, in the case of the harm principle, it is suffering caused by actions. In Utilitarianism it is maximized utility, but I fail to see how you can say that these are not relativistic moral philosophies.
    But you cannot evalute the morals of two different societies who hold two different, often times contradictory sets of ideas to be true.
    You most certainly can. That is the point of ethics. Of course, you may be a nihilist and believe that there is no such thing as right or wrong, but we can ascribe certain goals for ALL OF HUMANITY, such as the end of prejudice war and poverty (Goals dont have to be attainable) and we can assess the ethics of a society on a principle such as the harm their ethics do.

    Even using your "goal" oriented morality, we can judge other culture's moral systems by finding the ideal society, philosophically speaking, which would include the least suffering of its people.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  20. #20
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Killed for Clothes

    Judge ideas by their consequences. Freedom has a lot of bad records, but at least it causes damage indirectly.

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