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  1. #1

    Default Islam's Silent Moderates...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/op...=1&oref=slogin
    http://richarddawkins.net/article,19...i-Ali-NY-Times

    BY Ayaan Hirsi Ali, NY Times
    Islam's Silent Moderates


    The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2)

    IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up in horror.

    A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim herself to be guilty. Her crime is called "mingling": when she was abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane.

    Two hundred lashes are enough to kill a strong man. Women usually receive no more than 30 lashes at a time, which means that for seven weeks the "girl from Qatif," as she's usually described in news articles, will dread her next session with Islamic justice. When she is released, her life will certainly never return to normal: already there have been reports that her brother has tried to kill her because her "crime" has tarnished her family's honor.

    We also saw Islamic justice in action in Sudan, when a 54-year-old British teacher named Gillian Gibbons was sentenced to 15 days in jail before the government pardoned her this week; she could have faced 40 lashes. When she began a reading project with her class involving a teddy bear, Ms. Gibbons suggested the children choose a name for it. They chose Muhammad; she let them do it. This was deemed to be blasphemy.

    Then there's Taslima Nasreen, the 45-year-old Bangladeshi writer who bravely defends women's rights in the Muslim world. Forced to flee Bangladesh, she has been living in India. But Muslim groups there want her expelled, and one has offered 500,000 rupees for her head. In August she was assaulted by Muslim militants in Hyderabad, and in recent weeks she has had to leave Calcutta and then Rajasthan. Taslima Nasreen's visa expires next year, and she fears she will not be allowed to live in India again.

    It is often said that Islam has been "hijacked" by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates.

    But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done?

    Usually, Muslim groups like the Organization of the Islamic Conference are quick to defend any affront to the image of Islam. The organization, which represents 57 Muslim states, sent four ambassadors to the leader of my political party in the Netherlands asking him to expel me from Parliament after I gave a newspaper interview in 2003 noting that by Western standards some of the Prophet Muhammad's behavior would be unconscionable. A few years later, Muslim ambassadors to Denmark protested the cartoons of Muhammad and demanded that their perpetrators be prosecuted.

    But while the incidents in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and India have done more to damage the image of Islamic justice than a dozen cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, the organizations that lined up to protest the hideous Danish offense to Islam are quiet now.

    I wish there were more Islamic moderates. For example, I would welcome some guidance from that famous Muslim theologian of moderation, Tariq Ramadan. But when there is true suffering, real cruelty in the name of Islam, we hear, first, denial from all these organizations that are so concerned about Islam's image. We hear that violence is not in the Koran, that Islam means peace, that this is a hijacking by extremists and a smear campaign and so on. But the evidence mounts up.

    Islamic justice is a proud institution, one to which more than a billion people subscribe, at least in theory, and in the heart of the Islamic world it is the law of the land. But take a look at the verse above: more compelling even than the order to flog adulterers is the command that the believer show no compassion. It is this order to choose Allah above his sense of conscience and compassion that imprisons the Muslim in a mindset that is archaic and extreme.

    If moderate Muslims believe there should be no compassion shown to the girl from Qatif, then what exactly makes them so moderate?

    When a "moderate" Muslim's sense of compassion and conscience collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking.

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of "Infidel."
    Recent events indeed force us to ask where the moderates are hiding?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    richard dawkins? ayan hirsi ali?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!





  3. #3

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Yup the article was written by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. One of the sites that hosted it was Richard Dawkin's site.

    But it was written in the New York Times.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    hirsi ali is a phony. she lied about her upbringing her school her environment even her own name! her real name is magan her family was liberal and she didn't even have a genital mutiliation





  5. #5

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansa musa View Post
    hirsi ali is a phony. she lied about her upbringing her school her environment even her own name! her real name is magan her family was liberal and she didn't even have a genital mutiliation
    Has nothing to do with the article. Read it please. I know these "WORD PICTURES" are tough to go through but try your best.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    i'm not going to read anything by a phony and lesbian like hirsi ali





  7. #7

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansa musa View Post
    i'm not going to read anything by a phony and lesbian like hirsi ali
    what are u afraid of u did the same thing when i clearly showed u eveidence that your god is a name of a ancient pagan God.
    How great is he who gains the world but loses their soul? :hmmm:

  8. #8

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Axum View Post
    what are u afraid of u did the same thing when i clearly showed u eveidence that your god is a name of a ancient pagan God.
    If 'Allah' is a pagan god then every single arabic speaking person who believes in a god worships a pagan god.


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  9. #9
    Primicerius
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    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Axum View Post
    what are u afraid of u did the same thing when i clearly showed u eveidence that your god is a name of a ancient pagan God.
    Can you show me that 'evidence' too? I'd like to see it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Can you show me that 'evidence' too? I'd like to see it.
    it's mostly some crap from an evangelical blog site.





  11. #11

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mansa musa View Post
    it's mostly some crap from an evangelical blog site.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...


  13. #13

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    1) Saudi Arabia is literally full of crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Axum
    what are u afraid of u did the same thing when i clearly showed u eveidence that your god is a name of a ancient pagan God.
    2) This statement is full of utter crap.

  14. #14
    Scorch's Avatar One of Giga's Ladies
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    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    2) This statement is full of utter crap.
    Well, what is Mansa Musa if not consistent?
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  15. #15
    CyberFist's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prophet View Post
    Recent events indeed force us to ask where the moderates are hiding?
    According to fundamentalist muslims, there is no such thing as a moderate, i.e. if you are not as hardcore as them then you are not muslim at all. The same thing happens in the Christian world. If you don't believe a fundamentalist, literalist interpretation of everything then you are somehow not a Christian, or a lost sheep.

    Funny thing is, JC tends to like lost sheep.

    Let's all stick a giant bazooka up the fundies of all persuasions, I say

  16. #16
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberFist View Post
    According to fundamentalist muslims, there is no such thing as a moderate, i.e. if you are not as hardcore as them then you are not muslim at all. The same thing happens in the Christian world. If you don't believe a fundamentalist, literalist interpretation of everything then you are somehow not a Christian, or a lost sheep.
    Trying to see Islam from Christian point of view is not correct. I'm a fundaetalist. I believe in the fundamental teachinhs of Islam, which are believe in God, the prophets, the holy books (Qur'an in my case), the day of judgement, in angels and also in fate.

    As a fundamentalist these are the actions that were required of me to do pray, to fast, to give alms, to perform pilgrimage (if I'm able) and also to believe that there's no god but God (and for me) that Muhammad is His messenger.

    That is all.

    There shouldn't actualy be moderate, non-moderate muslims (from a Christian point of view though) since Islam itself is about moderation. It's true that you're either a muslim or not. If you do thefundamental teaching of Islam (like I show above) then you're a muslim. If not, then no.

    To the OP.

    The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2)

    It says 100, so why did the government give 200 ? The verse came from the story of prophet Ayub (Job ?) and the example given in the Qur'an was that prophet Ayub gave lashes using a straw (or something) which didn't cause harm (physically).

    Regarding syariah (law) you have to understand that there's 2 separate issue reagrding that. One which is set in stone (unchangable throughout the ages) and one changeble according to time.

    The unchangeble one is the concept of right or wrong. What has never change (and cannot be change) is that the act of fornication and adultery.

    The changable concept of syariah is the implementation of the punishment. It comes under sub-laws such as Hudud, Qisas etc. Too long to explain, but since I saw from your post you're one of the intelligent poster, not blinded anti-Islam everything then I guess you can look up for your self thse differences of the syariah. Maybe just google hudud, qisas and so on.


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  17. #17
    CyberFist's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    Trying to see Islam from Christian point of view is not correct.
    So what can I do in life? Never consider a different religion? Never empathize or put myself in the shoes of another?

    Christianity is fundamentally opposed to the notion of "pillars". And this is not a recent thing. It is in the Book. Outward behaviour, while an indicator, is not a correct barometer of inward belief. Praying at a certain time etc your whole life displays outward holiness and yet your insides may be a nest of vipers. God must be in your heart, you must be humble and know your own mortality. God does not order us to do anything. He gives us the spark, and then it is up to us. We have all been given a chance.

    several people on this forum declared "not enough" when i made the thread showing muslims that condemned terrorism. i had a conversation with this guy on youtube where i said that osama bin laden should be beheaded. and he continued to yell and shout at me for "not condemning terrorism enough" with extra exclamation points and loud tones. and then i had another conversation with this other guy where he said that people living in western nations that have fanatical views should be immediately executed. i said that's going to far. he said that i wasn't condemning terrorism enough. you say that muslims are a peacefull people yet you expect peacefull muslims to engage in violent protests in the name of islam against terrorism.
    Well, that's a bit rough.
    Last edited by CyberFist; December 08, 2007 at 11:47 PM.

  18. #18
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberFist View Post
    So what can I do in life? Never consider a different religion? Never empathize or put myself in the shoes of another?

    Christianity is fundamentally opposed to the notion of "pillars". And this is not a recent thing. It is in the Book. Outward behaviour, while an indicator, is not a correct barometer of inward belief. Praying at a certain time etc your whole life displays outward holiness and yet your insides may be a nest of vipers. God must be in your heart, you must be humble and know your own mortality. God does not order us to do anything. He gives us the spark, and then it is up to us. We have all been given a chance.
    Simple. See Islam from Islamic perspective of view and see Christian from a Christian perspective.

    You can put yourself in another shoe, but comparing this another shoe don't have laces while your previously have is not the correct way.


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  19. #19
    CyberFist's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    Simple. See Islam from Islamic perspective of view and see Christian from a Christian perspective.

    You can put yourself in another shoe, but comparing this another shoe don't have laces while your previously have is not the correct way.
    No. I was raised Anglican. My family & kids are everything. I want the best for them. I am only happy when that conjunction of events occurs. This **** is distracting me.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Islam's Silent Moderates...

    the important question is. why are islamophobes jumping up and yelling in our face to condemn every little incident of ignorance that muslims have committed and then when we do condemn it they say it's not enough and practically threaten to get there thompson submachine guns stick it in our ear and tell us to violently protest teddy bear blasphemy lashings? i don't really have to do anything. i really couldn't care less to tell you the truth





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