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  1. #1
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Introduction

    It is often remarked that theism is irrational, or that atheists are more rational than theists, or indeed that the religious are uneducated and/or emotionally weak. This is an extremely poor line of thought, and while it would no doubt find favour with the likes of Richard Dawkins, it amounts to no more than propaganda. In this post then I would like to set out the logical case not just against atheism but also for theism; since this post is already
    pretty long, I'll leave the specifically pro-Christianity part of the argument to a later date.

    At any rate, I'm not the sort of person who commits himself intellectually and practically to something without being able to justify it. If you find long posts tiresome, then I suggest you skip ahead to the section entitled 'Conclusion' at the bottom.


    Terms of Reference

    I know that not everybody has studied Greek and Latin, so to make things a little easier and more accessible, here's a list of some of the more vital concepts:

    Physis - literally 'nature'. Refers to the physical realm, to objects that are materially present.
    Metaphysis - 'beyond the physical'; concepts of existence that do not have material presence, e.g. consciousness and the mind.
    Theism - the belief that there is a personal God or gods.
    Atheism - the belief that there is not a God or gods of any sort. Generally associated with materialism.
    Agnosticism - the belief that one cannot be certain as to the existence of a God or gods.
    Deism - the belief that there is a non-personal God or gods. There are various other terms of beliefs about gods, but these are not immediately relevant.
    Materialism - the belief that "what you see is what you get." Nothing exists beyond the physical, material world. This is a key concept, and usually very closely associated with atheism (at any rate it is totally incompatible with theism).
    Emergence - the development or creation of larger and more novel structures through the combination of lesser structures (often associated with concepts such as evolution).
    Rationalism - the principle or habit of accepting reason as the supreme authority in matters of opinion, belief, or conduct.


    Some Opening Observations

    It is common, especially when reading authors such as Richard Dawkins (Oxford University's 'Professor of Atheism', as he has been dubbed by his colleagues), to associate materialism with rationalism and science. Broadly speaking, the line of thinking goes thus - if we have no evidence for something, then we have no need to believe it exists.

    Actually, that is usually quite a good approach to take. But what is 'evidence'? If you are able to pick something up in your hand then that is sufficient evidence that it exists. Alternatively however, there are things that we know to exist without actually having seen or experienced in any way. For example, take 'Dark Matter'. Here's Wikipedia:

    In astrophysics and cosmology, dark matter is matter of unknown composition that does not emit or reflect enough electromagnetic radiation to be observed directly, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter. According to present observations of structures larger than galaxies, as well as Big Bang cosmology, dark matter accounts for the vast majority of mass in the observable universe.

    Now I don't want to get into lengthy discussions of maths and complex astrophysics (I'm a Classicist, after all), but this sums up another concept of evidence quite well. If it is necessary that something exists, then it exists.

    In the case of Dark Matter, there is no positive evidence for it at all. It is quite simply undetectable. Yet observations of other matter would make no sense if it were not the case. The same can be seen in the field of mathematical proofs (which obviously are relevant to Dark Matter as well).

    In essence then it is important to remember that if it is definitely not true that something is not true, then that something must be true. In logical language, ¬¬x |- x.

    Now, at this particular moment we're not sure of enough concepts to start launching into atheism vs theism. Instead, I'd like to start off with questions of basic physis and [/i]metaphysis[/i]. Is it really true that materialism is a necessary component of a scientific outlook?


    Materialism and Cosmology - or "Science explains how, but it does not explain why (Part 1)"

    Materialism, in short, has a great nemesis - the concept of infinity. Matter is finite. Effects need causes, and causes need effects. Time it is true is limited by space, but space is also - according to most prevalent theories of cosmology - limited (stop me if I'm wrong). For instance, the big bang theory has the universe starting from a singularity and then exploding outwards. What came before this? Well, the big crunch theory suggests that the universe will eventually collapse on itself, perhaps creating another singularity that can then explode again. So what if our current universe was preceded by a different universe that then exploded on itself? Well, maybe so, but then you have an infinite regress of cause and effect that is difficult to reconcile with the finite qualities of matter, or indeed with the concept of cause and effect. Science cannot jettison the idea of cause and effect, because otherwise that leads to a vision of randomness in which objective observation is rendered null and void. If everything needs a cause, then this whole seemingly infinite cycle must have some reason for being in existence; if matter is really the only thing that exists, then there is no explanation for it existing, and cause and effect go out the window.

    But these days we have much sexier theories than the bog standard big bang/big crunch theory. For instance, there's string theory, M-theory and even D-theory, among others. Although none are falsifiable and all are disputed, they do nonetheless go a long way to explaining the existence of the big bang cycle - in M-theory, when to supra-dimensional membranes of, er (I don't know what they're supposed to consist of, if anything), collide, then a new universe is formed. Maybe that's true, but unfortunately the ex nihilo problem doesn't go away. Why are these membranes present at all? Well, all that materialists have ever been able to say amounts to: "It looks like the concept of infinity is just one that we're going to have to get used to." The only alternative that I have ever heard is: "I don't know how it works out; I just assume that there is some reason that we haven't found." If a theist is ever accused of taking logical paradoxes on pure faith and dogma, then that should raise a smile to his/her lips.

    Alas, a materialist cannot get used to infinity, because s/he upholds the finite nature of matter as paramount.


    Materialism and the Human Self - or "Science explains how, but it does not explain why (Part 2)"

    So, materialism has a problem with infinity when it comes to the nature of the cosmos. But wait - that's not all.

    Let's think about the human self, or, to put it more pertinently, you. What exactly are 'you'? You're there, inside your head, (hopefully) reading all of this, forming an opinion, be it good or bad. But just what are you made of?

    Materialism says that you are composed of nothing more than physical matter. Our bodies are the product of evolution, of survival of the fittest, and of natural selection (I should point out here that theists ought to believe this much as well). At some point, millions of years ago, proteins combined to form DNA, DNA that was capable of facilitating biological processes. That DNA was mixed up with other DNA, it randomly mutated, new and better biological structures were formed, and we, the human race, turned out to be the pick of the bunch (though some would argue that bacteria are the most successful life form, but there you go).

    But then we come to the human mind, our consciousness. Well, materialism says that that is material as well. But there's one curiosity - our mind is an experience. We can feel things, we can form opinions on things, and we can make rational decisions of our own free will. Free will cannot emerge from matter however. There are some who will try to argue that evolution has created a combination of biological matter that is sentient. Now the most basic form of matter, at the sub-atomic level, has no physical properties that make it sentient. It can perform very basic processes of moving energy about from place to place, and as evolution develops a species of creature, the biological matter within it will carry out those processes in better and more sophisticated ways. This is the theory of emergence - certain combinations of matter create changes in processes, and those who hold to strong emergence would say that it can even create new ones. But emergence cannot on any reading result in new objects.

    Something cannot, in the materialist view, be got from nothing.

    So, one common materialist's retort is that there is no such thing as free will. Can we form opinions? No! That's just an illusion. Really the choice has already been made for us by our physical instincts, and we are deceived into believing it to be free.

    But hang on - that's not very satisfactory! In fact, it raises more questions than it answers. First of all, why? If the human is not actually capable of forming opinions, but is in fact just a biological robot, then why the need for any deception? Can't it just 'get on' with things? Secondly, doesn't the notion of deception require free will?

    After all, it implicitly requires the object's ability to form a free opinion, since otherwise there would be no point in attempting to influence its interpretation. Thirdly, it implies a separation between mind and brain - the brain receives and processes all the sensory information, and a materialist believes that the brain acts on it automatically, so if a trick is being played by the brain it could hardly be played on... the brain!

    So, it would seem that our ability to perceive and to form opinions on perception implies a distinction between the physical brain (that processes the information) and the metaphysical mind (that actually 'observes' the information). What of the other materialist's explanation, that perception and free will are products of biological evolution? This is an untenable viewpoint. The most extreme form of emergence theory states that biological evolution could produce new processes (so for example the ability to turn the energy of light hitting the retina into electrical pulses in the nervous system etc.), but it cannot produce new objects. Materially speaking, it is impossible to get something out of nothing. Matter has no physical property that makes it sentient, and sentience is evidently not just a process (free will is after all inconsistent with mechanical process, and the ability to be aware of observation and to form opinions shows that there is another 'object' besides the physical brain that is taking up that part of the equation).

    Put quite simply, if materialism holds true, then the human brain is at best a mechanical robot, unable to be aware of itself and simply performing tasks. But we do have awareness; moreover, we have free will and the ability to form opinions. This is impossible for the physical, and so must clearly point to a metaphysical mind. Any notion that consciousness is an illusion only reinforces the idea that the metaphysical mind is a separate entity from the physical brain.


    Observations on Physis and Metaphysis

    It should be becoming clear then that the materialist statement "All that exists is physical matter" is not consistent with itself. If that statement is not true then (and logical inconsistencies generally suggest that), there must be a plane of existence beyond the physical that can account by its existence for the various issues of logic that physical matter on its own cannot account for. For ease of reference (and to avoid confusion with later issues) we shall refer to this as the metaphysis.

    Straight away we're faced with a bit of a problem. Scientific methods don't - and can't - be used, at least in our current conception of science, to tell us about the metaphysical realm. Science relies on physical observation and produces physical descriptions. For all that the metaphysical mind is able to see, make up opinions etc., it uses physical equipment (brain, eyes etc.) to see physical objects. We do not, as far as we are currently aware, possess the necessaries to allow us to directly observe the metaphysical. There are obvious problems in attempting to describe the metaphysical in terms that only apply to the physical, yet that is pretty much all we can do at this point, since the physical is all that we have observed. We have not observed what it would be like to live outside the boundaries of time and space, for example, so we would find it difficult to describe.

    As a result, arguments must become more speculative (but I'm used to that, since I'm an ancient historian!). What we can say however is this: we have a number of problems such as infinity and intelligence that the physical realm cannot account for. These must be accounted for by objects within our conjectured metaphysical realm. If you feel uncomfortable with such a conjecture, then it should be remembered that if it is necessary that something exists, then it exists.


    Conclusion - Implications For Theism and Atheism

    These observations have quite specific implications for theism and atheism. Now ruling out materialism does not, it has to be said, totally undermine atheism. Just because there is a metaphysical plane of existence that presumably encapsulates the concepts of infinity (through lack of space/time boundaries) and intelligence (as evidenced by our own consciousness) does not necessarily mean that there is a God or gods. Buddhism, for instance, envisages such a situation without necessarily involving gods.

    However, questions must still be raised. The metaphysical context outlined above would certainly fit extremely well with certain religions, particularly Christianity. The Christian God, almost as if anticipating these exact philosophical questions, states that, "I am the Alpha and the Omega" (i.e. the beginning and the end, the fulness of everything, presumably encapsulating infinity) and gives His name as "I Am." I don't have the time, nor do I suspect that you, dear reader, have the patience, to develop this line of reasoning much further here. However, what I think that we can at least say is that atheism is blown wide open to all sorts of metaphysical, or even religious speculation, as more and more points of contact between the physical and the metaphysical world (such as miracles, relics, icons, historical accounts thereof and so on) are considered in greater depth.

    In essence however, when it is clear that materialism is false and space has been developed for metaphysical speculation outside the practical bounds of physical science, the atheist's philosophical position doesn't necessarily seem so secure anymore.


    In the future I do intend to take this argument further, revise it, shore up holes, tighten bolts etc. But alas, I'm a busy man!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    For instance, the big bang theory has the universe starting from a singularity and then exploding outwards. What came before this?
    You have here made the assumption that something was necessary to come before the Big Bang, which needn't be the case. If the Big Bang was when time began, then nothing came before it. After all "What's more north than the north pole?".

    Well, materialism says that that is material as well. But there's one curiosity - our mind is an experience. We can feel things, we can form opinions on things, and we can make rational decisions of our own free will.
    Let me put this question to you - if you had no sense of smell, hearing, sight, taste or touch (and was born that way) would you be able to think? I'd imagine it would feel pretty much the same as being dead (ie, not sentient)

  3. #3

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Good post, but not necessarily constructive. Theist arguments remain the same (though you've put them in a coherent way), and atheist arguments remain the same.

  4. #4
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    If anything your post, Zenith, was more a case for agnosticism than theism.

  5. #5
    mongoose's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Why must there be a 'why'? Or a meaning to anything? It seems like you're bagging the question on that one.

  6. #6
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    I must say, I had high hopes for this post, but alas, it was simply the same fallacies again (though stated very well).

    I will address the points generally in the segments from which they originated.

    Some Opening Observations
    This entire section is a strawman against empiricism. All scientific belief and theories are MODELS of how the world works. This allows for views of EFFECTS of matter (such as dark matter) and allows us to use induction to form a belief. Is this belief going to be as strong as the belief that I am typing on a comuter right now? No.

    While certain beliefs are less strong inductively than others, this is not an argument against induction.

    Materialism and Cosmology
    Here you speak at great length about the "finite" nature of matter. And yet, physics tells us that matter cannot be created or destroyed, only converted. You never actually substantiate this claim, and yet it is the basis of your argument.

    Also, this argument is entirely nonsensical. Theists offer an explanation which CONTRADICTS their own assumptions. Everything needs an antecedent cause… oh wait, except God. This entire section is not an objection to theories; I believe it was Hawkins who said something along the lines of, asking what caused the universe makes no sense. It is a one sided question, and your entire argument that infinity is impossible is based on the ASSUMPTION that matter is finite.

    Materialism and the Human Self
    This is truly the weakest part of your post (and also the longest). It reeks of theological assumptions.

    You completely ignore the fact that while basic physical matter does not have sentient properties, its organization does. We achieve sentient capabilities with ORGANIZATION of material, just as silicon in itself does not have the property of storing digital information, but with organization it can.

    Theists give up all true intellectual purpose when their only retort to a philosophical argument is “why”. You cannot just defeat determinism by asking “why” the deception. You are thinking along the lines of an intelligent creator, not a set of physical laws.

    Your final paragraph makes conclusions which you have not proven, and they are rather bold. You conclude that a computer cannot be self-aware, and yet, your conclusion do nto follow from your arguments.

    Observations on Physis and Metaphysis
    The entire section is based on faulty assumptions from the beginning. No logical inconstancies do not point that physical only definitions of the world are false, in fact, they are they only ones which are supported by induction.

    In conclusion, you set out to prove the metaphysical, and could not avoid the fallacies which many fall into.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
    Also, this argument is entirely nonsensical. Theists offer an explanation which CONTRADICTS their own assumptions. Everything needs an antecedent cause… oh wait, except God. This entire section is not an objection to theories; I believe it was Hawkins who said something along the lines of, asking what caused the universe makes no sense. It is a one sided question, and your entire argument that infinity is impossible is based on the ASSUMPTION that matter is finite.
    I don't have time to get too involved in this but it strikes me that here you have missed the point entirely. All things that we can observe have an origin. Either this string of origins stretches back in time infinitely or there is an ultimate origin, a thing from which all else originated. A thing from which all else originated defies our observations and would therefore be supernatural, or God. This argument is not contradictory but rather seeks to explain a logical contradiction in our observations of the universe.
    Formerly a man did not dare to think freely; now he dares but cannot, his will to think is merely a willingness to think to order and this he feels as his liberty. - Oswald Spengler, Decline Of The West


  8. #8
    mongoose's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Why must everything have a purpose and a creator?

  9. #9
    Roman Knight's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose View Post
    Why must everything have a purpose and a creator?
    I like to create my own purpose and create my own things, I don't like being controlled.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
    Everything needs an antecedent cause… oh wait, except God.
    TBH, neither does the Big Bang, to scientists. Ask David Deas.

    There was nothing before it (no time), and the Big Bang needs no 'cause' either. It 'just happened'.

    So, that's not altogether fair criticism, or at least not fairly applied.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by Spurius View Post
    TBH, neither does the Big Bang, to scientists. Ask David Deas.

    There was nothing before it (no time), and the Big Bang needs no 'cause' either. It 'just happened'.

    So, that's not altogether fair criticism, or at least not fairly applied.
    And that was really the reason for my comment earlier in this thread. Infinite regression is broken by the same argument used equally by both sides. The only *real* difference between atheism and theism is the point at which the argument is made.

    Even when you take a look at the Big Bang, physicists are justified in their models. But the awesome thing about science is those models can change as other information comes along. We already have a few quantum gravity models that think we can peer "back" to "before" the Big Bang primarily because a singularity never actually occurs. However, infinite regression is still defeated by the same argument whether there is such a thing as "before" the Big Bang or not. Or whether there there were previous Universes or not. Or whether there are other Universes and dimensions or not.

    Hence the main challenge with theism; it fundamentally violates the principal of parsimony by suggesting events, objects and mechanisms that are not required to explain observation.
    Last edited by David Deas; December 09, 2007 at 09:06 AM.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by David Deas View Post
    However, infinite regression is still defeated by the same argument whether there is such a thing as "before" the Big Bang or not.
    Yep.

    Is funny though how the BB theory and the Church are related, via many ties, not least of which Lemaitre, one of its creators, and rather high-ranking Vatican official, who spoke of a 'Day without Yesterday', but had Genesis in mind as well.

    I don't like the BB overmuch, BTW.

    Always liked the ideas of Hannes Alfven better than Stephen Hawking.

    for people unfamiliar with Plasma physics:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=RPYz3iWmyLo&feature=related

    also search for the 'electric universe' - there's several more, none really potty. Been an alternative cosmogeny for ages.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by Spurius View Post
    I don't like the BB overmuch, BTW.
    Nobody likes the Big Bang. It sounds corny.

    I personally do not like the Uncertainty Principal. It makes it so I can't really understand what going on from a physical ontology standpoint because its a purely mathematical argument, and I'm a much better learner if I have some way of picturing things visually. I guess everybody is probably like that though. I don't know. But its seriously not like I have a better idea.

    But thats what I like about science. Thats whats so great. Its the one field left where the evidence counts for more than the authority.
    Last edited by David Deas; December 09, 2007 at 02:30 PM.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Its not clear why theists view religion as an answer to infinite regress.
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  15. #15
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    We all have a purpose, it is to entertain our creators. Obviously we are a construct with very advanced AI. Our purpose is to go about our lives and await the great reset.

    (I have just as much proof of this as theists have for their god)
    "For the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!"

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    1 question for atheists

    where did it come from?





  17. #17

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Where did what come from?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    everything. where did everything come from?





  19. #19

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    SHORT ANSWER: No one knows.

    LONG ANSWER: Most scientists agree the origin of matter came from the big bang. But as far as true origins go, we don't really know yet. Its something that will need continuous research to figure out for sure.


  20. #20

    Default Re: Zenith's Philosophical Attack on Atheism

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prophet View Post
    SHORT ANSWER: No one knows.

    LONG ANSWER: Most scientists agree the origin of matter came from the big bang. But as far as true origins go, we don't really know yet. Its something that will need continuous research to figure out for sure.

    just recently i discovered some new peanut butter and some new jelly that i didn't buy in a cabinet. According to atheists the rationale thing to do would be to assume that the peanut butter and jelly created itself or had legs and walked or rolled into my house or possibly snuck in .

    but hey if that's your beliefs





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