Islam and Secularism

[MasterAdnin]

I hear many people here claiming that what Islam truly needs is to separate church and state, also known as secularism. I feel this is very untrue and direly not needed.

The current Western ideals and ways of thought comes from Christianity, whether this is realized by the West is currently unknown to me, but this is, for the most part, true. Christianity has affected the West in various and countless ways, to deny this is to deny the "evolution" of the West. So basically, secularism is a Western idea with roots in from Christianity even though it goes against religion in general.

Islam is different though.

The government is an extremely important aspect of Islam. Al Quran teaches how to govern, how to set up a nation, and how to rule, Christianity does not. Al Quran teaches morals and ethics, Christianity does. So if Christianity does not contain one aspect Islam does, why should Islam drop that aspect based upon the fact Christianity blended the two together then dropped one half completely?

I do not know if this makes too much sense as I am very tired right now, but please try to understand and comprehend to the best of your abilities, and if you cannot, I will clear up anything which is confusing.

Salaam bros,
Adnan

[The Prophet]

Secularism does not come from Christianity - thought christian openness to it did help. Secularism and Liberalism (the foundations of modern western civilization) comes in spite of christianity.

I have a simply question MasterAdnin - what if Muslims don't want an Islamic government?

[Mansa musa]

Secularism does not come from Christianity - thought christian openness to it did help. Secularism and Liberalism (the foundations of modern western civilization) comes in spite of christianity.

I have a simply question MasterAdnin - what if Muslims don't want an Islamic government?

the polls show that muslims do want islamic government

[MasterAdnin]

Secularism does not come from Christianity - thought christian openness to it did help. Secularism and Liberalism (the foundations of modern western civilization) comes in spite of christianity.

Christianity being the dominant faith in the West certainly did have an affect on secularism and it's creation.

I have a simply question MasterAdnin - what if Muslims don't want an Islamic government?

Firstly, no one would force them to follow it. If it already exists, then unfortunately they have two options, live with it or leave, not much else can be done, but I am not an advocate of forcing beliefs, whether they be political or religious, onto another.

Salaam,
Adnan

[The Prophet]

Christianity being the dominant faith in the West certainly did have an affect on secularism and it's creation.

Christianity being less "law" related helped no doubt. But at the end of the day Secularism and Liberalism grew out of a sort of opposition of the church and christian ideals which were thought to be outdated and wrong.

If it already exists, then unfortunately they have two options, live with it or leave, not much else can be done

So if say 50% of Muslims in a country like Pakistan wants to abolish all religious shariah laws and formally make Pakistan into a secular republic and they do this by electing officials who reform and change the constitution.

Whats wrong with that?

[MasterAdnin]

Christianity being less "law" related helped no doubt. But at the end of the day Secularism and Liberalism grew out of a sort of opposition of the church and christian ideals which were thought to be outdated and wrong.

Um...I kinda said that in the original post bro,

So basically, secularism is a Western idea with roots in from Christianity even though it goes against religion in general.

So if say 50% of Muslims in a country like Pakistan wants to abolish all religious shariah laws and formally make Pakistan into a secular republic and they do this by electing officials who reform and change the constitution.

Whats wrong with that?

If the majority do not want Sharia law, then it is okay to abolish it and reform and change the constitution, but, currently, that is not the case.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Mansa musa]

So if say 50% of Muslims in a country like Pakistan wants to abolish all religious shariah laws and formally make Pakistan into a secular republic and they do this by electing officials who reform and change the constitution.

Whats wrong with that?

The state IS about islam in islam. Islam IS the state and the state IS islam. in islam. i don't know why you're telling me that there's nothing wrong with dropping islamic history and going all the way back to the bronze age of the indus valley. or becoming a part of western society. there's obviously something wrong with it. islam is the only remaning system that opposes western ideas and equally opposes communism and socialism. all the other nations of the world jump for joy when the word westernization pops up. because they have no ideaology. they have no history and they have no values.the clash of the civilizations between islam and the west and the possible cold war was/is inevitable because both civilizations believe that they hold universal values that is all encompassing and that all should abide by.

[The Prophet]

I think one of the problems with the Muslim mindset is the linking of Secularism and Liberalism with "The West".
Needless to say this largely the fault of westerners themselves who often speak as if secularism and freedom are somehow white values only. They are far from it.

Secularism, and Liberalism are UNIVERSAL political values. It places freedom of man at the top. It allows for the most freedom, for the most people. Hence why it is better than Islamic governance and shariah. Because Islamic systems will always be inherently oppressive, abusive and cruel.

[Shadowcry]

Didn't Protestantism and the reformed churches have a huge effect on the spread of secularism as opposed to the Catholic church? If you agree with that I would have to say then Christianity had a huge effect on secularization, along with the wars of religion.

[mongoose]

MasterAdnin, secular humanism is most definitely NOT based on Christianity. It has somethings in common with Christianity, such as limits on things like murder, but then again so do non-Christian countries like China, and even countries that existed long before Christianity existed, like Republican Rome.

Look at it this way: The Western world was monarchist for most of its history, but that doesn't meant that current western ideas are based on monarchy.

[Sosobra]

Master Adin are you in favor of the non believer tax?

[Mansa musa]

Master Adin are you in favor of the non believer tax?

i'm in favor of it. Muslims have to pay zakat so why shouldn't they pay the jizya?

[The Prophet]

Why discriminate between muslim and non-muslim? Why not the same taxes for all?

[Sher Khan]

It shouldn't be. In theory, it was all originally just simple tax.


But once we started getting into the deathtrap that is theological terms and semantics, we became trapped in a never ending cycle of treating such and such as a tax, when such a concept was a later creation and not originally meant in Islam.

[The Prophet]

It shouldn't be. In theory, it was all originally just simple tax.


But once we started getting into the deathtrap that is theological terms and semantics, we became trapped in a never ending cycle of treating such and such as a tax, when such a concept was a later creation and not originally meant in Islam.

The Jizya is not mentioned in the Quran?

[Sher Khan]

Nothing in its technical terms or legalese function as it was historically or used today (if it is at all).

[The Prophet]

Well from an Islamic political stand point it makes sense. The jizya was originally established to levy tax on non-muslims in place of their prohibition of being armed when within Islamic rule - and thus not being part (or allowed to be) of Muslim armies.

I guess then the Quranic point to argue would be if non-muslim citizens within an Islamic state are allowed to take up arms and be part of the Muslim nations armies. If you read the history of Abu Bakr and the 4 "righteous" caliphs you will see that they clearly and unequivocally implement a system that expressedly forbid non-Muslims being part of active poltical or miltiary life.

Of course this flies in the face of equality and human rights in every sense.

[Mansa musa]

non muslims are restricted from military service obviously for fear of rebellion

[Spurius]

non muslims are restricted from military service obviously for fear of rebellion

Rebellion against their rightful masters? How dare they.

*And* refuse to pay rightful taxes, because they 'never asked for it'.

Ridiculous.

[Frankly, you're damn right about that rebellion - I'd take your balls off too with a nailfile, if only for the taxes. I hate taxes.]

[The Prophet]

Rebellion against their rightful masters? How dare they.

*And* refuse to pay rightful taxes, because they 'never asked for it'.

Ridiculous.

[Frankly, you're damn right about that rebellion - I'd take your balls off too with a nailfile, if only for the taxes. I hate taxes.]

Mansa is a cheerleader for religious tyranny. So you can't expect more from the 17 year old AMERICAN.