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Thread: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

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  1. #1
    Count of Montesano's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    On Slate.com today, writer Christopher Hitchens makes an interesting argument about Hanukkah - that the holiday actually celebrates religious extremism and the deaths of millions of people over the past 2,300 years.

    http://www.slate.com/id/2179045/

    In a nutshell, Hitchens says Hanukkah is a far more dangerous holiday than Christmas because of what the two days celebrate. In the case of Christmas, the holiday is a blending of Northern European yuletide and the birth of Jesus, which at face value makes it a rather benign holiday. But Hitchens argues that Hanukkah celebrates the victory of Jewish extremism (the Maccabees) over the Western values of the Greeks. If the hardcore Jewish element had not succeeded in throwing out the Seleucids, Hitchens believes Israel would have become a secularized nation that valued logic and reason over religious zealotry. Jesus would theoretically have become an enlightened philosopher in the tradition of Plato and Ovid instead of a religious figure; the Jews would never have been thrown out by the Romans for a religiously inspired rebellion; and likely Islam too would never have risen in a "westernized" Middle East.

    As a person of faith, I see lots wrong with his theory, starting with the fact that I personally feel Jesus would not have become just a Greek philosopher. But I also think its disingenuous from a historical standpoint to say Hanukkah really celebrates terrorist bombings and Middle East turmoil, or that if the Jews had become Hellenized there would be no Intifada or Crusades or Israeli-Arab conflict. Curious to see what others think.

  2. #2
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    It celebrates the Jews victory over the foreign Selucid oppressors its just Hitches being his typical anti theistic self.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    the point of Channukah is not the Jews beating the big bad west, it is that they were able to beat their opressors, and the miracle of the oil. Far from celebrating religious extremism.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    Interesting thesis. Seems a bit far fetched and nonsensical to cast pre-medieval tribal groups in terms of such modern values. I'm pretty certain Seleucids were not exactly having orgies for reason themselves.

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    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prophet View Post
    Interesting thesis. Seems a bit far fetched and nonsensical to cast pre-medieval tribal groups in terms of such modern values. I'm pretty certain Seleucids were not exactly having orgies for reason themselves.
    I agree, it's an interesting idea, but, it really doesn't add up.

    I wonder what point Hitchens was really trying to make.

    Perhaps it was then, but the holiday is benign nowadays.

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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post
    I agree, it's an interesting idea, but, it really doesn't add up.

    I wonder what point Hitchens was really trying to make.

    Perhaps it was then, but the holiday is benign nowadays.
    I think he was trying to show how much of a drunk he is.

    Anyways the Jews were rebelling because they felt their religious beliefs were being persucuted with the Selucid's ruler's edict that they had to worship him and sacrifice pigs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    Han Nukah is Han Solo's radioactive counterpart.
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    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    I find I disagree with virtually everything Slate does and this is no exception.


    The whole idea is very weak. No one I know celebrates Hannukah as a reactionary rebellion. My Synagogue (and I assume, others) see Hannukah as enabling Jews to celebrate their religion not as a "anti-logic" holiday. Hell, with that logic Christmas is far from benign because the birth of Jesus indirectly led to the Crusades

    Just a rather silly idea if you ask me. "What if" is always very dangerous to call upon.
    But thats Slate for you. They'll say something stupid just so you have to read the article and marvel at its stupidity.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    well i dont see the connection, or even become what should be a happy celebration with family and not a extremist celebration,also who makes it into extremist don't deserve be jew or even celebrate !the same for christmas...

    a advice...let's not make this into another "fight thread" !!

    also jaquil, sometimes i wish make hannukah into a rebellion after listen a full hour of my grandfather speechs... lol
    Common sense removed due being Disruptive.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ataegina View Post
    well i dont see the connection, or even become what should be a happy celebration with family and not a extremist celebration,also who makes it into extremist don't deserve be jew or even celebrate !the same for christmas...

    a advice...let's not make this into another "fight thread" !!

    also jaquil, sometimes i wish make hannukah into a rebellion after listen a full hour of my grandfather speechs... lol

    Yeah I can see that . Thankfully my synagogue has always treated hannukah as a "fun" holiday just to leverage out Christmass.

  11. #11
    Blau&Gruen's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    It celebrates the miracle of the oil lamp that did not cease for eight days.

    Mordechai's spinning top, or Happy Chan Nu-Huka!
    clip below
    Flash Player required
    http://www.aish.com/jewlariousJtube/...ew_Hammer1.asp

    - a funny, a very very little bit polemic but still self-ironic religious video clip -
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; December 04, 2007 at 01:12 PM.
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    Sosobra's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    Its a celebration of the victory of the Maccabees over the Selucids forcing greek values. The Jews where fine with the Ptomelys and fought for them
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Does Hannukah celebrate extremism over Western values?

    It's definitely extremism, but it's a moral extremism. Antiochus IV desecrated their place of worship and tortured and killed thier people. It wasn't a war against a culture it was against the anti-semitic sub-culture that exists everywhere, the Seleucids just crossed the line.

    Is there evidence that Jews rejected Western values? Most enlightened heads of state like Cyrus, Claudius and Charlemagne gave Jews religious freedom because they integrated not because they were extremists. They just had a long history of martyrdom, the Christian martyrs were viewed as extremists in their time too.

    There's a big difference between the devout martyr and the crusading zealot and I don't think the Jews were the latter in this situation, they fought for self-preservation not to overthrow Greek values.
    Last edited by Maverick; December 04, 2007 at 01:02 AM.

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