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  1. #1
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Discussions on RS Mechanics

    To address a couple things people have talked about, yes, RTW really puts a lot of limitations on what you can do about economy, armies, nations protecting themselves, etc. But many of the things I've done in RS are based on my OWN observations of problems in RTW that were\are present in most mods.......and my methods also, are based on a balance of what can be accomplished, or at least go a long way toward accomplishing what I want, without damaging gameplay?

    For example, you can do a ton of things in RTW with scripts. But you see, I am an IT person and a software analyist.....my job was to observe how computers behave and fix issues that made them essentially useless. In the business world, time is money; so a slow, sluggish computer that makes you wait an inordinate amount of time to do even a simple task is going to piss people off and decrease productivity. Scripts, by their nature, because they are DOS\TEXT based commands are very slow and inefficient. The software world is binary...1's and 0's.....machine code...much faster, compiled into executables that 'fly' because they are written for a modern computer...not a Commadore 64. So I've worked with scripts enough to know that you can have the fastest computer on earth, and it will STILL have a hard time processing that old text based stuff that it sees as a foreign object.

    So in my opinion, scripts may well let me accomplish a whole bunch of stuff I'd like to do in this mod......but would the degraded playability be worth it. I don't believe so. Thus, I am not a fan of scripts.

    So how do you do things in a mod to change it's behavior without using scripts. Well, first of all, you observe. One of my observations in most all mods I've seen is that when you play, you may have a hard time in the beginning, but you reach a point where you've become so powerful that no one can any longer stand up to you. It's a 'tip-over' point that is evident in most 'strategy' games...where you know you're going to win because you've got so much money and so much STUFF that nothing can stop you.

    Now I can't alter RTW's code, but I can affect that 'tip-over' point by making at least the 'economy' based on things other than what they were before. By putting a lot of emphasis on you making money as a player in your own 'home' territories, I affect the 'tip-over' for two reasons. First, because I place at least some impediment on you..a restraint....because your finances are based in the areas where you started. Secondly, I give you an advantage for the same reason. As an AI faction expands, it loses money...or more correctly must spend a lot to maintain the expansion. It has a ton of armies because it can support them....but not a lot of money because it's trying to maintain it's empire like you are.

    Now you come along and attack this faction. You start taking it's territories away. You relieve it of it's expensive armies. You pound it back towards it's 'home'. In the normal RTW mod, what happens is that you handcuff the AI faction because you are taking huge chucks out of it's economy. (You may have noticed in most other mods that the more you expand, the more money you make. That is not so in RS...at least the goal is to NOT make it so.) But in RS, as you pound an AI faction back towards it's home, you are actually INCREASING it's income. Army maintenance drops. Costly and often unproductive regions are removed from it. In the only way I could think of, you are actually making them stronger economically. So at least it gives them a better chance, and 'delays' the tip-over' point a lot......because if you're not careful, that faction can recover and come at you again!

    Anyway, this is why RS has an AOR based 'home' economy. And as I get it adjusted better and better...it will be harder and harder.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    Wow. To have an enemy get stronger as you conquer them is awesome. You really have to change your stragety.

    Hahahahah that's why this mod is just amazing.
    Thanks DVK for clearing up some questions I had.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    You know the mod is in good hands when the creator is a software analyist by profession.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    Awesome, I hate slow games, really. They make me want to do this

  5. #5
    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
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    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    I fully understand the sheer genius of the home region idea now... I never thought about the delay of the tip-over. Indeed, I have noticed that when I start fighting a region, and take a couple of regions they actually start doing better financially!

    Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    Glad to know script will be minimal. Sometimes it's better to change history than to relive it.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    This is actually MORE historical.

    Consider the Punic Wars, in the third and final one, Carthage was reduced to holding only the city itself and some surrounding small towns. Rome had dominated much of the Mediterrenean, but it still took 3 years of siege with about 40,000 men, equivalent of roughly 8 Republican Legions to finally take Carthage. In vanilla RTW, Carthage wouldn't even last through a turn at that point, but with this design, Carthage might actually have a fighting chance.

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    Yes! Chaplain acctully like carthage. I hope carthage wreaks havox on the romans and barbarians, and the sellukids.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    Yes, dvk, thank you for adressing these issues. We all know you can recruit a scripter and make tons of scripts that will make RS THE BEST mod, (not that there is a better one now) but guys like me (with junk videocard) will just quit playing RS. Stop playing RTW, for that matter, cos the only mod I really want to play is, Roma Surrectum. So you are very right. The way is to make it as realistic and fun in RTW mechanics, without using scripts or only a tiny bit.
    This tip-over point is a very important part of any strategy, especially RTW and is the reason of me not finishing a SINGLE RTW mod campaign EVER. I have finished one whole campaign in vanilla and it was awhile ago. Nice work with the economy system. I noticed the AI is not so bad on the strat map, but really get's low on cash cos it doesn't know how to spend it and at a time just collapses. This system will give RS a fresh, fun look.

    dvk and RS team, I salute you!

    P.S. Can't wait for RS 1.5.. Ahhh

  10. #10
    pseudocaesar's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Octavius-Augustus View Post
    Yes, dvk, thank you for adressing these issues. We all know you can recruit a scripter and make tons of scripts that will make RS THE BEST mod, (not that there is a better one now) but guys like me (with junk videocard) will just quit playing RS. Stop playing RTW, for that matter, cos the only mod I really want to play is, Roma Surrectum. So you are very right. The way is to make it as realistic and fun in RTW mechanics, without using scripts or only a tiny bit.
    This tip-over point is a very important part of any strategy, especially RTW and is the reason of me not finishing a SINGLE RTW mod campaign EVER. I have finished one whole campaign in vanilla and it was awhile ago. Nice work with the economy system. I noticed the AI is not so bad on the strat map, but really get's low on cash cos it doesn't know how to spend it and at a time just collapses. This system will give RS a fresh, fun look.

    dvk and RS team, I salute you!

    P.S. Can't wait for RS 1.5.. Ahhh
    Scripts dont affect Graphics, so a crap graphics card wont make the game load faster etc. Ram is what helps with scripts.

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    As I see it, the AI ruins itself by pumping out unit after unit of all classes, while doing almost nothing for the economic development of its provinces. Finaly there is no one left to do the work on the fields and pay the taxes.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    Exactly. It also dries it's settlements out of manpower, so there is no real money from taxes, noone to recruit and you crush the AI with hardly any real resistance...

  13. #13
    icydawgfish's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    Nice logic DVk. Script wise, I think a happy medium is necessary. You can't have no scripts because that takes away from the mod by making it bland, while you can't have to many scripts and be like EB which is practicly unplayable (at least on my pc). I think an example of mods with a happy medium in terms of scripting would be IBFD and RTR. Just enough to enhane gameplay without ruining the mod.


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  14. #14
    Gaius Georgeus's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    Well, one little question to make it clearer for me. What exactly is that "homeland"? Does it move with your capital? Or is it a firmly stated part of a map, certain number of certain regions for a certain faction?

    Because presuming my interpretation of what you said was right, the further away from your homelands you conquer, the smaller amount of tax income you gain from those distant provinces, right?

    Well, this could work really nice if those empires expanded in all directions from their homelands. But i am not so sure they really do. Just imagine this - what is Carthago homeland? Carthage and surroundings? All right, so I will just sail there, take it from them, quite easy usually.

    But what next? They will have to change the capital, but does that affect their current homelands? Or if I conquer their homelands first, those once distant provinces will still have that tax income handicap? How would that work with your "maintenance theory"?

    Thanks in advance for your reply and thanks for a possibility to discuss it...

    EDIT: Just a few things more came across my mind. I fully understand your point and I greatly appreciate it, actually that is my biggest problem with every strategy game - As soon as I get the feeilng I cant be defeated, the game is no more a challenge. This should improve it a bit (depending on your answers for my upper questions, i think). BUT as much as it improves gameplay, its actually not very historically accurate. It were in fact those distant colonies which paid Romes enormous expenses...Rome drained them dry and that was economically (by many opinions) the main reason of its decline, exploiting provinces instead of developing them properly, which finally meant thered been a certian point, when there was nothing more to take and there was almost impossible to expand more, having enemies at the border, fixing the legions there. Rome shaped into perfection the slavery system, but in such conditions he slowly start to fail, breaking slowly into feudalism. Nevertheless, Rome have never been as stupid as the European union - they didnt bring grain from Egypt to Rome, just to send it back to feed egyptian legions All armies, all administrative, everything used the local resources. There goes the maintenance theory. I would rather believe in the more pragmatic way of explaining this issue and that really happened. Simply said, the further the province from Rome, the more greedy governor

    But of course, should I choose between historical accuracy and gameplay, you can bet what i would take Therefore, my compliments for your idea, dvk...
    Last edited by Gaius Georgeus; December 05, 2007 at 05:06 AM.
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  15. #15
    Blackshamrock.'s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    You all have maid Intrething points about the game play and so on. Now my self on the other hand who knows noting about scripting, I like to play the game like this and have done with the rs mod. I Consolidate Italy north and south first, then I build up my economy by trade, and wait for the reforms, Then I begin to expand, Slowly. Thats how I play and it has always worked.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    @ Gaius. As far as I know if you play rome youre homeland ALWAYS stays in italy and if greece in greece and if carthaginian then southwest africa.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    DVK901, Do you mean that when you conquer lands and building your empire, doen't always help you to gain more money?

    First, if you know no one can beat you, and you have lots and lots of money to spend, that is the time you are thinking of starting a new campaign.

    Second, I try to play myself with house rules like, I will leave those cities and towns to the free people after conquering except those strategic located. This will limit my empire building.

    So if those are RS mechanics without scripts will definitely be challenging without waiting.

    If I get it right, some town or city will not help you gain economy boost with limited buildings? And limited recruitable units or if you want to recruit will cost you a lot? But you still need to conquer them to build your empire, money shrinks because you need bigger upkeep to garrison or defend them?

  18. #18
    Scipio praeditus's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Georgeus View Post
    Well, one little question to make it clearer for me. What exactly is that "homeland"? Does it move with your capital? Or is it a firmly stated part of a map, certain number of certain regions for a certain faction?
    I restate this question by Gaius because I believe it was not answered fully.
    If this "homeland" is restricted to a geografic region instead of the capitol and surrounding area, the AI would be screwed when you have taken half their empire, because that part likely contains their former homeland.
    Leaving the AI with penalized regions only.
    So, Capitol area or original homeland?

  19. #19
    Blackshamrock.'s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    I'm saying you can make grate money from trade. Thats how I do it. But I have to say this is a very slow way of doing things. But to be honest when you do it the way I do when you do start expanding, the main thing to do is build ports roads and markets, the your making a nuff, money to pay for your can pain and maintain your empire. I hope I'm not gone off topic here and if I have sorry.

  20. #20
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Discussions on RS Mechanics

    When you conquer new lands, you'll still make money.....just less money than you would've in normal RTW Vanilla or some other mods. The reason is that the maintanence costs of guarding and ruling an expanding Empire rise as you expand. So making less money as you expand is way of 'simulating' the fact that it costs you to do so.

    In normal RTW, if you took a region, you'd start making money right away, and whatever that city was giving it's previous owner. But this way, if you take the same city, it gives you less money (income).

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