An interesting criticism of Zionism

[infernocanuck]

Link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9OIqy6md9w

This is a 8 minute video of a Jewish protest. The speaker, is admittedly, yelling (because He's talking to a large audience without a microphone) but he does have some interesting remarks against Zionism, and claiming that the Jewish people actually have no claim to Palestine.

Of course, there is rhetoric. But, I'm curious as to your reactions to it.

I admittedly, in my ignorance, assumed that the Zionist movement, for the most part, was relatively positive and supported by most jewish people. Now I can see, this is certainly not the case.

[Wautd]

and claiming that the Jewish people actually have no claim to Palestine.

Isn't that obvious. Why should they have a claim?

[Valentin the II]

Isn't that obvious. Why should they have a claim?

Why should anyone have a claim to any peace of land?

And btw zionism was a very positive and progresive movement.
I said was becaws it doesnt exist anymore.

@Wautd: Is that the simbol of Anch-Morpork?

[Wautd]

@Wautd: Is that the simbol of Anch-Morpork?

Does the sun rotates around the Disc?

[Mansa musa]

Why should anyone have a claim to any peace of land?

And btw zionism was a very positive and progresive movement.
I said was becaws it doesnt exist anymore.

@Wautd: Is that the simbol of Anch-Morpork?

positive for the jews. regressive for the arabs. just like nazism was progressive for the germans. and regressive for the jews

[Rush Limbaugh]

positive for the jews. regressive for the arabs. just like nazism was progressive for the germans. and regressive for the jews

And the PLO is? Hezbolah is?

[Shaun]

And the PLO is? Hezbolah is?

Also regressive for the Arabs I imagine.

[Sadreddine]

I really have a weakness with people capable of independent thought, able to scream what he sees as just even in detriment of the commonly accepted creed of his own "kind".

That shouting guy really got it right. If I was there I would have shaken his hand. I'm not concerned about the existence of the State of Israel as much as he is, though.

[Blau&Gruen]

Independent? - Very pious maybe.

[Kiki52]

Many people say the Hebrew Bible and all the prophecies point to the day when the Messiah shall come forth and make the Jews the Greatest people on Earth, and whom shall dominate all people and all things for everlasting eternity. All man, the white man, the brown man, the yellow man, and the red man shall be subserviant to the Jews because they are YHWH's Chosen People and that shall never be annulled, cancelled, or changed. When the Third Temple is rebuilt upon the Mount Moriah, the Messiah shall come and cause fire to rain down from the Heavens to signal the coming of his Messianic glory, to deliver the Jewish people from the days when gentiles trampled over them. And they shall reign over the whole world forever and ever. On that day, Christianity and Islam will become more Judaic and return to it's Hebraic roots. Then all people shall stream into Jerusalem and honor the future Messiah, kissing his feet. The Jewish Messiah shall put a seal of GOD upon the foreheads and right hands of all those who follow him, and give unto them a literal heaven on earth. The Jewish Messiah's Kingdom is a earthly kingdom, a kingdom that will be literally transformed into a Jewish paradise. And all people shall sing unto him GLORY GLORY GLORY forever and ever.

That is what many Zionist Christians and Jews state. Go on many websites, you'll see that what I written above is a general summary of what they think the future may hold for all people. So I wonder how that will change the whole world when the day comes when the Jewish Messiah returns.

[infernocanuck]

Now I don't know what to think of Zionism! Should I just chalk it up to an ideology, an ideology, like all ideologies, with positives and negatives, moderates and extremists?

[Icefrisco]

I just wanted to make a comment to everyone:

Ultra Orthodox Jews oppose Israel based on the bible, they use denial of the holocaust and claims of Israeli attempts at "genocide" to cover their true motives for the complete destruction of Israel and everyone in it.

The Rabbi's opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.

I admittedly, in my ignorance, assumed that the Zionist movement, for the most part, was relatively positive and supported by most jewish people.

I am a Zionist and can say that Zionism has been completely misinterpreted by foreigners. I dont even know how you can judge Zionism. Have you ever done any research into Herzl's goals and ideas? It is a positive movement but peopel need a scapegoat for the trouble in Israel and they blaim Zionism. Zionism is the reason that the land of Israel is now so lush and green. Zionism is the reason Palestinians are still around(radical Jews would have kicked them out long ago, but that would have been again Herzl's intentions). Zionism is the reason that thousands of less Jews died in the Holocaust.

Isn't that obvious. Why should they have a claim?

Why should the descendants of Arab day laborers have more claims to Israel then the descendants of Jewish settlers? Do Mexican day laborers have claims to parts of America?

That shouting guy really got it right. If I was there I would have shaken his hand.

He is a religious extremist. Do you support religious extremism?

Independent? - Very pious maybe.

Hes more extreme then pious.

That is what many Zionist Christians and Jews state. Go on many websites, you'll see that what I written above is a general summary of what they think the future may hold for all people. So I wonder how that will change the whole world when the day comes when the Jewish Messiah returns.

Jews dont think that. Plus, only Born-Again Christians think that. It wouldnt refer to Catholics, non-extreme protestants, or any other Christians.

positive for the jews. regressive for the arabs. just like nazism was progressive for the germans. and regressive for the jews

So your comparing Jews to Nazis?

Should I just chalk it up to an ideology, an ideology, like all ideologies, with positives and negatives, moderates and extremists?

Herzl's idea of Zionism which is the founding of a safe place for Jews is moderate. Herzl didnt even demand a Jewish state. People who say that killing Muslims/ pro-Palestinian Jews is an act of Zionism are not Zionists. They are extremists. Pat Robertson might call himself a Zionist but he sure isnt.

Also regressive for the Arabs I imagine.

Really? Are you implying that the PLO laundered international aid money and Hezbollah wants to establish an Islamic dictatorship?

[Nikephoros II Phokas]

I just wanted to make a comment to everyone:

Ultra Orthodox Jews oppose Israel based on the bible, they use denial of the holocaust and claims of Israeli attempts at "genocide" to cover their true motives for the complete destruction of Israel and everyone in it.

The Rabbi's opinion should be taken with a grain of salt.



I am a Zionist and can say that Zionism has been completely misinterpreted by foreigners. I dont even know how you can judge Zionism. Have you ever done any research into Herzl's goals and ideas? It is a positive movement but peopel need a scapegoat for the trouble in Israel and they blaim Zionism. Zionism is the reason that the land of Israel is now so lush and green. Zionism is the reason Palestinians are still around(radical Jews would have kicked them out long ago, but that would have been again Herzl's intentions). Zionism is the reason that thousands of less Jews died in the Holocaust.



Why should the descendants of Arab day laborers have more claims to Israel then the descendants of Jewish settlers? Do Mexican day laborers have claims to parts of America?



He is a religious extremist. Do you support religious extremism?



Hes more extreme then pious.



Jews dont think that. Plus, only Born-Again Christians think that. It wouldnt refer to Catholics, non-extreme protestants, or any other Christians.



So your comparing Jews to Nazis?



Herzl's idea of Zionism which is the founding of a safe place for Jews is moderate. Herzl didnt even demand a Jewish state. People who say that killing Muslims/ pro-Palestinian Jews is an act of Zionism are not Zionists. They are extremists. Pat Robertson might call himself a Zionist but he sure isnt.



Really? Are you implying that the PLO laundered international aid money and Hezbollah wants to establish an Islamic dictatorship?

i respect this position but I think Valentin got it right

Why should anyone have a claim to any peace of land?

in this context, israel has a pretty decent claim if we put any stock in tradition that is if anyone has a claim to any land.

we should also realize that the media plays a big part in shaping opinions about israel, and they don't sell papers or hook viewers by showing that israel is a nice place to live if you catch my drift

[Blau&Gruen]

Hes more extreme then pious.

He fears for Judaism. It is hard for us understand nowadays that jews wrote letters to Hitler to apologize for jewish 'mistakes'. I do not think, he is right, but I would like to admit, he does not do it for selfish reasons.

[Sadreddine]

He is a religious extremist. Do you support religious extremism?

I support anyone, considered by some as religious extremist or not, who speaks of peace and understanding between muslims and jews. Do you not?

The part that hurts you is his opinion about Israel. Therefore, your disagreement is more political than moral or religious. That is, of course, if we accept the hypothesis that you value peace and understanding between muslims and jews.

[Mansa musa]

most anti zionist people seem to be jewish. many of the famous documentaries against zionism contains largely people who are jewish

[Icefrisco]

most anti zionist people seem to be jewish. many of the famous documentaries against zionism contains largely people who are jewish

Nearly 90% of anti-Israeli Jews are:

1) Self-Hating Jews (college professors)
2) College kids influence by self-hating Jewish college professors
3) Ultra-Orthodox Jews

Mansa you made a very good statement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i respect this position but I think Valentin got it right

Thank you!

in this context, israel has a pretty decent claim if we put any stock in tradition that is if anyone has a claim to any land.

Exactly!

we should also realize that the media plays a big part in shaping opinions about israel, and they don't sell papers or hook viewers by showing that israel is a nice place to live if you catch my drift

Sadly thats true. Israel has a very good economy and has the only improving natural environment in the world yet, the news never reports that. Even their economy is great. Cellcom, and Israeli company has recently been skyrocketing in share price.

[infernocanuck]

Wait. I have another question. One comment really confused me.

Self-Hating Jews? What the hell is a self-hating jew? Is it someone who loathes there very own cultural heritage, someone who hates their own identity, or someone who simply doesn't agree with the common consensus? This seems like a very convenient, rhetorical accusation.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm seeing alot of broad accusations, generalizations and (understandably) emotionally charged language. Although I apologize for perhaps stirring up a hornets nest, I do enjoy reasonable debate and different opinions. I do appreciate any information on this topic, for it has piqued my curiosity, and I do wish to enlighten myself.

[Mansa musa]

um this is very wrong. some of these anti zionist jews are holocaust survivors. what's wrong is wrong

[Icefrisco]

Wait. I have another question. One comment really confused me.

Self-Hating Jews? What the hell is a self-hating jew? Is it someone who loathes there very own cultural heritage, someone who hates their own identity, or someone who simply doesn't agree with the common consensus? This seems like a very convenient, rhetorical accusation.

A self-hating Jew to the fullest extent is a Jew who disowns his cultural and religious ties to his people(Jews) and also criticizes the culture and religion.

Its like a German person saying that he hates German people and that he is no longer German. Its a wierd concept.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm seeing alot of broad accusations, generalizations and (understandably) emotionally charged language. Although I apologize for perhaps stirring up a hornets nest, I do enjoy reasonable debate and different opinions. I do appreciate any information on this topic, for it has piqued my curiosity, and I do wish to enlighten myself.

Your not stirring up a hornets nest, dont worry. Thanks for the interest!

He fears for Judaism. It is hard for us understand nowadays that jews wrote letters to Hitler to apologize for jewish 'mistakes'. I do not think, he is right, but I would like to admit, he does not do it for selfish reasons.

He is not selfish but his desires are no different then a Muslim suicide bomber. Would you consider a suicide bobmer pious or an extremist?

I support anyone, considered by some as religious extremist or not, who speaks of peace and understanding between muslims and jews. Do you not?

I support non-extremists because extremists usually have other motives in mind.

Also, he does not really care about peace or the Palestinians, he just feels that Jews are not allowed to be the majority in Israel on biblical grounds. HE denies the Holocaust for the same reason. The only way he would support Israel is if a king was proclaimed and the Dome of the Rock was destroyed for the 3rd temple to be built.

The part that hurts you is his opinion about Israel. Therefore, your disagreement is more political than moral or religious. That is, of course, if we accept the hypothesis that you value peace and understanding between muslims and jews.

The part that hurts me is that he is bringing religion into politics. Also, I am hurt that people like you(its not your fault, most people dont know) believe what he is saying is coming from his heart. Honestly, he doesnt give a **** about the Palestinians. He wants a Jewish king to be proclaimed and a 3rd temple built. Would that favor the Palestinians?

um this is very wrong. some of these anti zionist jews are holocaust survivors. what's wrong is wrong

Religious extremism is more important to some survivors then their own survival.