Incest: Punishable by...

[sephodwyrm]

A question I have for a long time in my head.

Frankly, how do you think incest should be punishable by? And why? Any special case scenarios that you can use to defend your case?

Just FYI, religious grounds against incest is some of the more decent things I can say about religion (the Chinese didn't need to have religion to be against incest...it was integrated as a social taboo, though).

Note that there are several forms of incest:
0. Step-parent-child
1. Cousin marriages (some Chinese regard that as incest)
2. Same surname marriages (some Chinese also regard that as incest)
3. Sibling (same parents, different parents, step siblings)
4. Cross-generation (uncle with niece, parent with child etc)

IMO, on grounds of militancy against incest, the Chinese should rank pretty high. We even have taboo against same surname marriages and incest-by-title (no blood relations but still a mix up of family relations) is also punishable by death in the dynastic era (it was also very unthinkable). In modern era the whole thing mellowed down to imprisonment if its considered as rape. I am not too sure about consensual incest. But the marriage law established in 1950s outlawed incestual marriages. Still - major taboo. People have to destroy their birth certs and forge new ones if they want to get married to their siblings or parents.

I personally feel that these forms of relations should be quietly dealt with with no media uproar in order to take care of the memetics. And the same goes for consensual relations. Separation and imprisonment. And I don't support the death penalty for this.

[Dayman]

It's difficult, but if say two adult siblings or cousins wanted to do the deed I would see no moral objection. It's their right to do that kind of stuff, and most people don't have that kind of attraction (well, with siblings anyway, cousins are different). With your own parents? I have no justification, but that just turns my stomach, same with anyone "above" you on the family tree.

[Cúchulainn]

Incest I have found to be the rather weird taboo of the Abrahamic world.
Which is very confusing!!

They won't admit to what they believe.

Cause it's a taboo.

It's funny actually.


And you can't punish someone for having a bizarre sexual desire.
As long as it's consensual of course.

Everyone has a fetish, and to be shot because of that, is not cool!!

[Domnul Ceaşcă]

Death penalty for incest?! In which absurd country is there a Death Penalty for incest?

[Bokks]

Incest is a universal taboo, although it's up to the individual cultures to decide exactly what incest is. Sephodwyrm, I have never heard of a society as strict as the China that you've painted, but that does make sense as China's culture is very family oriented. Usually cousins are a legal and generally accepted--in some societies preferred--marriage strategy. Sibling relations are usually looked down upon; even in societies where sibling relations are well known tio have occured the actual frequency of such occurances are nearly non-existant (Ancient Egypt, for examply), but universally parent/child relations are expressely forbidden. You can probably count the cases throughout all of human history that are well known on your hand, and these cases always involve indivduals who were outcasts in society (Nero and his mom... I think it was Nero).
In the US most states legally allow and recognize cousin marriages. US history is riddled with famous persons marrying their cousins, from Edgar Allen Poe (...is it Allen or Ellen Poe? They both look wierd to me right now) to FDR. Sibling marriage is a different case, although it is still legal in about 1/4 to 1/3. Very few people have ever married their siblings in US history that were ever readily recognized or famous, although Angelina Jolie had that tryst with her brother a few years back.... .
Parent/Child marriages are not, to my knowledge, recognized anywhere in the US, and such an occurance would create an uproar in the community. Not to mention all of the terrible puns.

[Medicus]

Very few people have ever married their siblings in US history that were ever readily recognized or famous, although Angelina Jolie had that tryst with her brother a few years back.... .

And this woman is famous - Why?! 50 years ago she would be slammed as a sick degenerate.

I strongly feel that incest should be discouraged because of how genetics operate.

Plus, it's just wrong. On so many levels.

[Bokks]

And this woman is famous - Why?! 50 years ago she would be slammed as a sick degenerate.

Oh, I know, but now most people just got the half-nude pictures of her for their dorm rooms. That was right after she stopped going out with Billy-Bob Thornton, of course, and french-ed her brother right on the red carpet for golden globe or whatever on national television.
She's become closer to normal since then. Actually since Mr. and Mrs. Smith I've almost become a fan of hers.

That change from 50 years ago is exactly the sort of thing that this thread is about!

[sephodwyrm]

In which absurd country is there a Death Penalty for incest?

The Gulf States.
I strongly feel that incest should be discouraged because of how genetics operate.

[Domnul Ceaşcă]

I strongly feel that incest should be discouraged because of how genetics operate.

Yes, but not with a death penalty.

[Bokks]

Yes, but not with a death penalty.

I don't think anyone, especially not sephodwyrm, was defending killing over incest. But some cultures do, even today. Generally these are the cultures that stone prostitutes to death, cultures that can actually be understood in their actions by the great emphasis they put on family matters.

[edit] again, totally NOT defending it, but you can, in a wierd sort of way, understand their actions.

You see, the mechanisms of memetics.
In this case incest is not a taboo, but more of a fetish for some reason.
And that's definitely NOT a means to discourage it.

Oh! Sorry, I forgot to really say anything about punishment. I would say that all the US can do is refrain from legally recognizing such things, and you'd be suprised at just what effect not recognizing a marraige can have. Look at homosexuals in most states of the US; it's not just because their unions aren't called marriages, it's that marriages are a legal and therefore legally helpful state of being, with tax incentives and other legal things. In the US you can't imprison someone because of who they did, more just how they did it (rape). Well, there is legal action against that with minors, but that's a different discussion all-together. In that way it's the communities responsibility to regulate such acts by making it unacceptible. That's where the terrible puns and jokes comes into play...

[sephodwyrm]

Yes, but not with a death penalty.

Did I say that?
Or did you think I am from ancient China?
There's a reason why that China is called ancient, you know.

in US history that were ever readily recognized or famous

You see, the mechanisms of memetics.
In this case incest is not a taboo, but more of a fetish for some reason.
And that's definitely NOT a means to discourage it.

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

Personally I don't mind incest.
Just have to be careful with having children tho.

[sephodwyrm]

Just have to be careful with having children tho.

This brings the discussion to entire different level.
Are the concerns of incest gone because of contraception?
There's an evolutionary interest to bar incest.
But how about the social interest?

[Bokks]

This brings the discussion to entire different level.
Are the concerns of incest gone because of contraception?
There's an evolutionary interest to bar incest.
But how about the social interest?

I would say that contraception has had little influence, rather it is that a society that would have contracetion is the same type of society that would be liberally viewed enough to accept incest.
It's one of those things that togther have no effect on eachother but rather both spring from the same society.

[Dayman]

This brings the discussion to entire different level.
Are the concerns of incest gone because of contraception?
There's an evolutionary interest to bar incest.
But how about the social interest?

Humans have, and still do marry cross cousins. From what I remember from anthropology is that lineages usually do not last long enough for inbreeding to occur.

You can have a kid with your 1st cousin, and unless you both share bad inheritable traits, nothing bad will happen. But I assume the more and more inbreeding a lineage has, the worse it gets.

[mocker]

I'm tempted to say something like "fun for the whole family!", but I suspect people would start glaring at me...

[Richard]

Step-parent and step-sibling isn't incest, though it could certainly have negative psychological effects so probably should be avoided. Close blood relation sexual relationships should also be avoided because of the genetic side of things (Hapsburg lip, anyone?). In this era of condoms....well, that's a whole nother kettle of fish

I wonder of Prince Charles' ears are the result of a thousand years incestual breeding?

[Thanatos]

It's not incest if you're not blood-related, or are at least a third-cousin.

But it'll still be weird as hell.

I dunno... what if you and a cousin really honestly did fall in love? I don't know about this anymore...

And no, before you ask, I'm not into any of my family.

[Siblesz]

I don't know... I think incest is pretty much a normal thing. I'd never imagine myself feeling attracted to my sister or brother... God, no. That puts a horrible image on my mind. But I've felt attracted towards some of my second cousins before.... it's normal stuff. That doesn't mean I'd do them. There's a societal line, and everyone who's sane enough must abide by it.

[Dayman]

But I've felt attracted towards some of my second cousins before.... it's normal stuff. That doesn't mean I'd do them.

Same here, except it's one of my first cousins. If I found out I was adopted