Light cavalry and Heavy Cavalry

[anaztazioch]

In TLR the differance i see is that Light Cavlry is simply weaker and less armored, so its a waste of money.

My idea is to make Light Cavlry have worser (lighter) armor, but higher defence skill, lower charge bonus, but higher mele strength (becouse their moves are not restricted by stiff heavy armor).

All this changes are made to show that in melee Light cavlary is stronger than the heavy. While you need to just slice and kill light armored unit, a heavy just need to be knocked of the horse and ran down.

Besides Polish Retainers is EARLY unit. It was Polish first stational army also called "pancerni" and fought under Cedynia 972 by Miszko I vs Hodon and Zygfryda von Walbeck. West Pomerania (with Szczecin) joined Polish lands after this battle. Pancerni were skilled militray man not "nobles" or "knights"



Why in description Poland has "makes use of strong cavalry" when Polish strongest Guard is stronger by 1 strength, 2 charge bonus and 1 defense skill than English knight who were soppused to be "English weak cavalry" ?


Why there is such a unit as "Noble Knights" ? Knight is a Nobility class, with lower staus in European "factions", but in Poland there was "equality" in nobility status, so Knight had equal status and rights as noble. Is that why Poland has no "Polish Noble Knight" ?

[apw2]

English knights are pretty much the elite english cavalry, so they are bound to be fairly good. Where it says the english have week cavalry, perhaps it means most of their cavalry is weak, while having a few stronger units later on in the game.

Anyway, English heavy cavalry (knights) in history were actually very strong horsemen.

[anaztazioch]

Yeas, but polish is "makes good use of strong cavalry".

But i think that MTW team forgot that Polish unstappable force was formed in XVI centuary during Stefan Batory rules and reforms. Famed Polish Hussars were "born" there. I think that those so called "winged" Hussars is why MTW has "makes use of strong cavlary".

[Edward the Bear]

Yeas, but polish is "makes good use of strong cavalry".

But i think that MTW team forgot that Polish unstappable force was formed in XVI centuary during Stefan Batory rules and reforms. Famed Polish Hussars were "born" there. I think that those so called "winged" Hussars is why MTW has "makes use of strong cavlary".

16th Century, as opposed to the game period that begins in the 11th Century and ends in the 14th Century yes?

[anaztazioch]

16th Century, as opposed to the game period that begins in the 11th Century and ends in the 14th Century yes?

The game ends after Columbus and Americas. Thats 16 centuary IMO.

[anaztazioch]

Yes, but as long as MTW says Poland did had strong cavalry back than, why not ?

Poland was very poor, untill Kazimierz Wielki, Poland existed only couse it was part of United Christian Europe, good relations with HRE, many mariages with foreign princesses, fact that mongols retreated becouse their Kahn passed away, Ottomans had trouble conquering Byzantine and Teutonic order called in 1226 that protected Poland from growing Grand Dutchy of Lithuania.

Kazimierz Wielki (1333-1370) [Kazimirus, Dei gracia rex Polonie ac terrarum Cracovie, Sandomirie, Syradie, Lancicie, Cuyavie, Pomeranie, Russieque dominus et heres.]. He reunited Poland (finally, many earlier reunited it, so it could be devided again), Gave Pomerania to Teutonic order, ekspanded Polish border with Silesia, Halych, "Moldavia", part of Brandenburg lands. Reorganized military, cared more for discipline in army, and all land owners (exept priesthood) was to arm them selves at call. He built 53 castles and 27 city walls (gave some work places, that attracted even foreign inhabitants). He founded about 100 new cities, attracking foriegn peasants and specialists to Poland, Krakow become a trading "center".
He did not had a son he arranged that Ludwik Andegawenski from Hungary will become Polish king (also lowered chance of Hungarian invasion and increased relationship).

All in all he was "father" of Polish strength.

So in early game, Poland should Really be weak, units with higher upkeep, but lower recruit cost.
In late peroid, it should grow strong enough to match stronger European factions (but not enough to match France, but to have be able to make em hell :p).
This will also make some sort of difficulty and fun factor. You will allways be potential target for invasion, so diplomacy and military (this poor and expensive) will make it hard for you to develop.

[apw2]

If you look in the desc_stat.txt file you will notice it finishes in 1530

[anaztazioch]

Thats 16th centuary ^^

[apw2]

Yeah i know, but it ends early in that century. If the winged hussers were brought into the game, what would be the point? They would only be around for a few years before the end of the game.

[Kula]

"Pancerni" means armored .

I don't agree with opinion about Kazimierz Wielki , a great king sure. But not a builder of Polish "strenght"

One example he built 53 castles, but many of them ( maybe all ) were build on safe borders. Borders with Germany and Teutonic Order were unfortified.
He didn't conquer Silesia.

His kingdom :


Poland under Bolesław Chrobry ( 992 - 1025 )


Cavalery was my always nation best troops. But the legend started when Poland moved into eastern steps. Cavalery is the the only kind of force that can operate on such big areas. I think that EMPIRE TW should be a place for very strong and powerful polish cavalery. Maybe even the best of available. I hope so

[anaztazioch]

Its not exacly that i want to add them.
Its that i want to have Polish units eigther stronger, or more diverse.

The Russian Druzhina is replaced by Polish Nobles in MTW.
The polish knight and guard are avarage class heavy cavalary, while the description of Poland states "makes use of very strong cavalry" at the cost of infantry.
But if i can have dismounted hospitaliers that are stronger than polish dismounted knight, lithuanian dismounted cavalry (one of best ranged infantry, when Poland should have them weak acording to description), polish knights and guard barelly stronger than hospitallers it all goes to have Poland "avarage all round" whitch i dislike.

The army of Poland i want to have is :
Early
- Woodsman (slavonic axeman, woodsman sounds more like... woodsman not military man)
- Slavonic bowman (not peasant, peasants in poland never got any weapons)
- peasants
- town militia
- spear militia
- polish shooters
- pancerni (militia cavlary, make them comperable with mailed knights)
- spearman
Late:
- druzyna (polish nobles make their armor 1 point higher)
- Polish infantry (dismounted polish nobles best if they could be javanelins and swordsmans)
- polish retainers
- balista (unavailable earlier)
- hussars
- halaberd militia
- halaberd infantry
High:
- gunner
- arquebusier
- polish knights
- polish guard
- polish mounted knight
- lithuanian archer
- lithuanian infantry (lithuanian dismounted cavalry)
- lithuanian caalry

All non leavies in Polish army was eigther a noble or mercenary.

[apw2]

There was a saying about the Templars, i can only assume it stands for the hospitaliers as well, but it went something like "a single templar sword could rout a hundred enemies" since the templars and hospitaliers were meant to be elite knights, you can't expect many units to be superior than them.

[anaztazioch]

@ apw2

I Agree. They were Hospitalliers, guardians of pilgrims not elite military man. What bothers me most is that they can come in early peroid, and they match Polish Dismounted Knight (have higher armour by 2, but lower charge or something)

[apw2]

Well the designers do have to consider many different aspects of the game, they not only compare the polish knights to the hospitalliers, but they have to compare the knights of all other factions too. Maybe they felt that knights somewhere else were superior to the polish knights or something, who knows.

But you should be able to change the stats yourself without too much difficulty if your unsatisfied, or the designers don't wish to make the polish knights superior.

[anaztazioch]

I presume that mod creators, that includes unit ballancing, knows more about "importance" of numbers. All changes i tried to make, made them medieval a-bombs :/

[Kula]

I like this disscusion .

I can write a summary about Polish forces in mid-ages , with proper names of units and pictures ( weapon, armor, battle formations, abilities ) with emphasis on cavalery. It's a big work. I need to look into my books and so on.

The only thing I need to know is an answer form creators of this mod. I don't know if they want to make any changes in polish units rooster. Is my work needed?
___

In XI Polish kings captured a viking's city called - Jombsborg ( Jarlsborg ). From that city polish kings were hiring vikings under their command. There are many more interesting facts about polish forces, but as i wrote i need an answer

[Averroës]

Well, technically, the creator of the mod isn't here now.

Tornnight last posted back in September. He was very busy with life matters. He hasn't been around since.

Acegogo, who did much of the graphics, has been trying to keep The Long Road (TLR) alive; but it is difficult without the mod designer and creator here. I've been trying to help.

The plan right now is to get as many bugs corrected as possible so we can post a "final" TLR 2.0b here.

Then we, or at least I, will be transferring work entirely to the Darth Ages mod, which uses the Kingdoms expansion and updates The Long Road to Kingdoms and merges it with the Darth-style battle and AI. There is a thread here in the TLR forum for Darth Ages and one in the Darth Mod forum as well.

If you want to update things for Darth Ages, contact Naimad - the creator.

If you don't have the Kingdoms expansion, then I suppose you can simply make the changes for your own personal use. Or perhaps Tornnight will return one day and continue work on TLR. We can hope!

[anaztazioch]

I like this disscusion .

I can write a summary about Polish forces in mid-ages , with proper names of units and pictures ( weapon, armor, battle formations, abilities ) with emphasis on cavalery. It's a big work. I need to look into my books and so on.

The only thing I need to know is an answer form creators of this mod. I don't know if they want to make any changes in polish units rooster. Is my work needed?
___

In XI Polish kings captured a viking's city called - Jombsborg ( Jarlsborg ). From that city polish kings were hiring vikings under their command. There are many more interesting facts about polish forces, but as i wrote i need an answer

1) About Viking city - now i know why Chrobry's cavalary had axes ;P I took it as painters "vision" before ;lol;

2) Its cavalry

3) The emphasis on Polish military can be of great use for me (im in Total Realism team for Civilisation IV, and were quite willing to add Poland as new civ). I did some search, but what i can read is just about pancerni, serbian hussars, Batory's hussars, Sobieski's Hussars. I dont have much sources and internet dont allways have what i search for.

If you dont want to mess arround here e-mail it to me if you please
btwbtwbtwbtw@gmail.com

4) Work should be moved to Darth Ages. By Kingdoms, kingdoms AI, formations, pathfinding DA is better than TLR. It uses same map (and Magdenburg reaching to Gniezno , German city names for PL , cheap units almost killing tactical aproach and begining age of spam and best unfixed unit name Lithuanian dismounted cavalry )

[Averroës]

I think this forum is a perfect place for such disussions.

I was just trying to answer Kula regarding "the creators of this mod" since Tornnight is not here.

By all means continue the discussion. I find the details interesting and I always look for more.

Just remember to keep all the discussions civil and polite.

And remember that in many cases no absolutely correct answer exists. Too much of our knowledge of the period depends upon accounts written later, sometimes centuries later, or they were written by the victors (who always portray themselves in the best light and their foes in the worst) or by chroniclers who were foreign and misunderstood what they saw.

[Kula]

1) About Viking city - now i know why Chrobry's cavalary had axes ;P I took it as painters "vision" before ;lol;

2) Its cavalry

3) The emphasis on Polish military can be of great use for me (im in Total Realism team for Civilisation IV, and were quite willing to add Poland as new civ). I did some search, but what i can read is just about pancerni, serbian hussars, Batory's hussars, Sobieski's Hussars. I dont have much sources and internet dont allways have what i search for.

If you dont want to mess arround here e-mail it to me if you please
btwbtwbtwbtw@gmail.com

4) Work should be moved to Darth Ages. By Kingdoms, kingdoms AI, formations, pathfinding DA is better than TLR. It uses same map (and Magdenburg reaching to Gniezno , German city names for PL , cheap units almost killing tactical aproach and begining age of spam and best unfixed unit name Lithuanian dismounted cavalry )

kawaleria[pol.] = cavalry, that's way this "e" appears .

I think that in one - two weeks time I will post full information about polish military forces in mid-ages. To present You the power of some units, I will describe some battels fought by them. But this takes time.

September A.D.1605 ( I know it is not a medieval battle ) Kircholm.

On one hill , polish hetman (general) Karol Chodkiewicz

1040 infantry, 2400 cavalry ( hussars, pancerni and some lithuanian and tatar units ), 4 or 7 cannons

On opposite King of Sweden Karl IX, 8500 infantry, 2500 cavalry, 11 cannons. Supporting cavalry from Germany, Netherlands and Scotland.

40 minutes later it was over. Polish forces lost 100 men ( 200 wounded ) including only 13 hussars. The enemy left on the battlefield over 8000 dead men. Karl IX was almost killed . Only few hundreds have escaped from battlefield.

Battle :



It was a very powerful charge ( do You feel the adrenaline ? ) combined with a brilliant command from polish general.

anaztazioch, I think I will keep posting here, but if You have any questions connected with history of Poland, please feel free to write to me . I will try to write for You some sort of summary about polish army ( not only in mid-ages). If nothing happens, It should be done on January.

kula@kula.ndl.pl

One very usefull information about polish cavalry. I think the most common opinion, is that in mid-ages polish cavalry was "light" , weak armors, not experienced. Using rather its numbers not quality. Look at the Teutonic Order, kilograms of steel, elite training, terrifyng appearance etc.

Polish king Wladysław Jagiełlo just before batle of Grunwald 1410 ( Tannenberg ), orderd his men to wrap around with straw. Funny?

No, Polish soldiers looked exactly as the enemy.